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#1 JohnAdams1735

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 05:58 PM

I will begin with a quote from Tharine:

 

Jun 15 22:05:36 <Tharine> People are welcome to have their own personal opinions of other people, and express those in what they understand to be private areas.

 

While our mods irc channel is still "public" in that it's in front of all the mods, it was never meant to be, nor should it have been, leaked to the true public of MCP. Still, in that channel, a Head Admin has no business bad-mouthing a former staff member (though some mods have engaged in such personal bashing of former staff in the past). It was a breech of decorum on my part.

 

I am sorry if my outburst scared or worried anyone, either because it was out of character for me (another staff member brought it to my attention some mods thought my account had been taken over somehow because it was so out of the blue) or because of what it might mean if you ever came to me with a concern/complaint/idea/problem/etc., or what it might mean about the status of MCP's Admin/Head Admin team.

 

I will try to clarify why I said what I did of Tharine and exactly what angered me so. I do not hate her, I do not hate her post or what it contains (by and large). What I hated about her exploding a drama bomb then bolting is that she's gone. She does not have to clean up the aftermath or even really deal with it. Whereas the people she left in her wake, especially Barlimore, steve, thrawn, and several others of the staff have to clean up her mess. Not to mention the stress, confusion, anger, hatred, etc. that her actions have provoked in and among the players and staff team. You all, players and staff alike, have spent countless hours collectively posting, arguing, getting your feelings hurt, getting angry, upset, etc. which isn't fair to you. I hate that it's cost you all so much of your time, effort, and emotional well-being and distracting you from... playing Minecraft.

 

In addition and more specifically, the logs leaked show that where I referred to Tharine and then pasted a link to her post was, in fact, a mis-paste (one of the quoted sections shows me correcting the link after two more attempts at getting it right). I was far more upset that she posted a picture of the test post I made on the forums before they went live as a test and little more. There was no ill-intentions in the form of the post, only a convenient topic I could pretend to rage about to show jcll how potentially toxic such a section of the forums could be in the wrong hands - something I've been proven right over given recent posts on that picture. Moreover, the picture was picked up by barneygale, who I assumed got it directly from her (but it's possibly more likely he took it from her post), and who proceeded to make it look as if I had really fallen off the deep end. He took the picture out of time, out of context, and with total disregard of reality, aimed strictly at making me look bad, dangerous, off-balance, etc. Because I thought Tharine had had a hand in barney's post and the fiction it created, I called her toxic. For the record again, I apologized to her via a subreddit pm as a personal, private matter between us and no one else. This, however, is now my "formal public" apology, which I did not think was necessary at first, but because of subsequent events and conversations with other staff members, have changed my mind.

 

I hope this clears up some things and perhaps, if I am lucky, shows that we have not swept this under the rug. I may not be stepping down or removed, but I can assure you it is a humbling experience to have people whose opinions you trust tell you you were out of line. Their words, intentionally or not, have cued me in to how badly I allowed my control to slip at that moment. I should have kept my knee-jerk reactions to myself and maintained my professional demeanor in the mods irc channel. Those individuals who have spoken to me are amazing people, I still believe, as it takes a lot of guts to have those sort of tough conversations with a peer. For that, I thank them.

 

I hope this also goes a little ways in healing the breech, where there is one, between players and the Admins. I am but one of many, and my attitudes and opinions do not always reflect or agree with the other Admins, even the other Head Admins. You have little to fear from them (and maybe this helps dissuade some of the concerns about myself remaining a Head Admin, even in a reduced capacity).

 

Before this gets much longer, I would also like to acknowledge that I have read the most recent posts on /r/barneygale and I do not take those comments lightly. I read them word-for-word and thought about each of them in turn. Rest assured those words will be rattling around in my head for months to come. Rather than going "unpunished" as some might think this is going, the drama on /r/barneygale as well as on MCP's subreddit and forums has been a learning experience for me and has occupied bits of my time with copious crying. I won't go on what I feel would be an ego trip here for now, but I would like to add that for every person who was quoted in barney's post, I have had random players and other staff tell me (unsolicited) that I am not a monster/bad person/asshole/bad admin/etc. I've seen incredible support from people who know what it's like to be a "public figure" and have your every move scrutinized and twisted. I logged into P yesterday and was greeted with a flurry of "Hello's!" So there is, as always, at least to sides to things.

 

Sorry about the wall-o-text. Thank you for sticking with me through it.


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#2 nolanater5711

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 06:27 PM

We have your back John


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#3 CharGB

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 06:32 PM

People say things in the heat of the moment, it's something a lot of people do. When I read a lot of this I knew it was out of character for you, even though it is a game, communities can be stressful.


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#4 gsand

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 08:06 PM

I don't think Tharine can be blamed for what other people said about the community...

 

Edit: I'd prefer a reply instead of downvotes, please.


Edited by gsand, 29 September 2013 - 11:10 PM.

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#5 Four_Down

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:11 PM

You want us to be honest with you, so I will be.

 

I don't think this is an apology at all, it just seems like you're trying to share the blame with Tharine, especially with that opening line.

 

I also don't believe what you said about the 'rage post' at all, and I think it's ridiculous that you'd try and cover it like that.

 

EDIT: Thanks Taco for clearing up my concern about the post.


Edited by Four_Down, 29 September 2013 - 10:44 PM.

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#6 tacodude3

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:17 PM

 

 

I also don't believe what you said about the 'rage post' at all, and I think it's ridiculous that you'd try and cover it like that.

 

I've said numerous times that I don't want to get involved in this whole drama debacle, but, from a pure, objective standpoint who witnessed these events unfold, I can affirm that John's post was merely what she claims it to be.


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#7 CharGB

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 10:09 PM

I've said numerous times that I don't want to get involved in this whole drama debacle, but, from a pure, objective standpoint who witnessed these events unfold, I can affirm that John's post was merely what she claims it to be.

 

I can confirm, I too made one of these little rage posts to test out the new forums back before they went live. We were testing emoticons etc.


Edited by CharGB, 29 September 2013 - 10:13 PM.

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#8 JohnAdams1735

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 10:15 PM

You want us to be honest with you, so I will be.
 
I don't think this is an apology at all, it just seems like you're trying to share the blame with Tharine, especially with that opening line.
 
I also don't believe what you said about the 'rage post' at all, and I think it's ridiculous that you'd try and cover it like that.


It is an apology. I'm not trying to share the blame with anyone, nor do I hold Tharine fully responsible for the community's reactions and words. But it would also be insulting her intelligence to say she had no idea what her post would do in the community. She's not stupid and has seen more than a fair share of toxicity and drama.

The 'rage post' was a test intended just as I describe it. I'm sorry you cannot or do not believe me. I could call witnesses, but I doubt you'd believe them either if you don't believe me.
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#9 gsand

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:00 PM

It is an apology. I'm not trying to share the blame with anyone, nor do I hold Tharine fully responsible for the community's reactions and words. But it would also be insulting her intelligence to say she had no idea what her post would do in the community. She's not stupid and has seen more than a fair share of toxicity and drama.

The 'rage post' was a test intended just as I describe it. I'm sorry you cannot or do not believe me. I could call witnesses, but I doubt you'd believe them either if you don't believe me.

 

What about what the people who said what they did, shouldn't they be held liable for their own words, the impact to the community?

 

Explain toxicity?

 

Who is being toxic?

 

Is the person whistleblowing worse than what they're whistleblowing about?

 

also, what about the issues that were raised in the posts?


Edited by gsand, 29 September 2013 - 11:06 PM.

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#10 Socarch26

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 12:05 AM

 

Is the person whistleblowing worse than what they're whistleblowing about?

 

 

Like taco, I wish to remain neutral in this, but just because you reveal something doesn't give you a free ticket to bend it any way  you want. In no way am I saying that Tharine is guilty of this (to tell the truth, I haven't been following this too well)  but if someone designs a reveal to incite drama, then they are also guilty of the ensuing mess. Also who cares what is whose fault? If we spend our entire time pointing blame, or going on witch trials, nothing gets done. 


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#11 WayneByNumbers

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 01:23 AM

Boy, is this refreshing to hear.  And I definitely share your hope that the MCPublic community can get back to focusing on the game.  Which you all just lost, by the way.  :3

 

Have to admit that, during forum testing, I was seriously hoping the Fiery Cesspit was a joke.  Was glad to see it gone.


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#12 Magnyus

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:09 AM

Have to admit that, during forum testing, I was seriously hoping the Fiery Cesspit was a joke.  Was glad to see it gone.


Would it really be all that bad though? Staff should focus on keeping the playerbase content, so if things are done correctly, you shouldn't even see people posting in there. And if they do, it will only raise a flag to give attention to the problem at hand. If people start posting attacks on other players, remove it and have them contact the person themselves or an admin.

I'd love to give such a thing a public test run just to see what it generates, if things go to shit, get rid of it, and be on your merry way. Of course, don't call it "the Fiery Cesspit."
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#13 Synergetrick

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:47 AM

I'm confused about a number of things over this entire incident, not just this post, nor the first post, nor your replies. This entire incident has, for me, dragged my trust in the staff as a collective group through the dirt. There's a small group of shining examples such as Draykhar and Barlimore who don't give politician's apologies, acknowledge that things aren't right and explain how they want our help getting from A to B.
 
What I don't get, in particular is where this post by a, by his own admission, "head-head" admin stopped being true. Was it when he left, or was it only true so that there was something in the mod forums in way of reprimanding those who took part in that ridiculous incident? If the former, why is it not true now? I've seen one moderator step down after their behaviour was making other players, my friends, uncomfortable after I had talks with the administration about it. That was on a personal level. This entire incident makes at least me and tens of others uncomfortable about it on a community level. From this post in /r/barneygale:
 

When I quit tech over a year ago I couldn't imagine things getting worse, but they really have. It's depressing as fuck to watch one person systematically undermine my work, the work of my predecessors, contemporaries, and successors, who have dedicated so much time and love to these servers.

 
Barney did put a lot of work into these servers. When c45y (who also put a superhuman amount of work into these servers) quit, his leaving post was, in summary, an indicator that he thought this had turned into a shitshow. This was reiterated when he posted this comment in response to your comment of "You cannot sit there and dismiss all the good I've done over the past two years so off-handedly." Interestingly enough, that's exactly what you did to Barney. Your response indicated that you want to go out on your terms which, last time I checked, isn't how the world works most of the time.
 
Now onto dissecting this particular post. I won't do the whole thing now, but I'll get started.
 

What I hated about her exploding a drama bomb then bolting is that she's gone.


Do not use this word, especially not in this context. It wasn't "drama" until you made it drama. I'm really tired of the staff and people who pretend they're staff misusing this word. It gives off a combination of "this person has no idea what they're actually talking about", and "this person doesn't want to deal with this so is pretending it doesn't exist".
 

She does not have to clean up the aftermath or even really deal with it. Whereas the people she left in her wake, especially Barlimore, steve, thrawn, and several others of the staff have to clean up her mess. Not to mention the stress, confusion, anger, hatred, etc. that her actions have provoked in and among the players and staff team. You all, players and staff alike, have spent countless hours collectively posting, arguing, getting your feelings hurt, getting angry, upset, etc. which isn't fair to you. I hate that it's cost you all so much of your time, effort, and emotional well-being and distracting you from... playing Minecraft.


Please tell me why there's an aftermath to clean up at all. The cesspit post you made was visible to me and any others that had the link (and it was given out like free candy, you were all so proud). Her actions are a response to your and everyone else's actions. You put her in this position, certainly not the other way around. May I ask how it feels to know that you made someone so uncomfortable being a part of a subset of your community that she had to show everyone what it was like? Do you know why? Because her loyalty was to the players, not to a small subset of the community known herein as "staff". I knew the majority of this information from other sources before it was posted in a Google Document, before Tharine had even thought to collate it, I know I'd have done the same.
 

Moreover, the picture was picked up by barneygale, who I assumed got it directly from her (but it's possibly more likely he took it from her post), and who proceeded to make it look as if I had really fallen off the deep end. He took the picture out of time, out of context, and with total disregard of reality, aimed strictly at making me look bad, dangerous, off-balance, etc. Because I thought Tharine had had a hand in barney's post and the fiction it created, I called her toxic.


I have two problems with this particular sentence.

Firstly, you indicate your assumptions that Tharine and Barney are, for whatever reason, colluding in some sort of attempt to get you removed. While I could understand the means and the target, the fact that you attach the two in such a way in order to paint both in a bad light indicates that you haven't learned a thing from this incident right off the bat. You go on further to throw words around his post.

Secondly, you called her toxic because she may have had a hand Barney's post? While I'm incredibly more partial to Barney's posts than you, I don't think I could ever find it in myself to write someone who did what has been done here off as a toxic influence on a community I love even if they'd raised the playerbase against me through it. If that had happened (and it has), they probably have some seriously valid points, no?
 

I hope this also goes a little ways in healing the breech, where there is one, between players and the Admins. I am but one of many, and my attitudes and opinions do not always reflect or agree with the other Admins, even the other Head Admins. You have little to fear from them (and maybe this helps dissuade some of the concerns about myself remaining a Head Admin, even in a reduced capacity).


I'm going to point out that if you seriously think a large wall of text that doesn't even say "I'm sorry for being horribly misguided" over and over again is going to do anything for your credibility with the majority of the playerbase, I'm afraid you're quite mistaken. One particular quote that comes to mind is "if you don't become an actor, you'll never be a factor". Posting text on the Internet isn't going to help your case, or the admin's case, or MCPublic's case. It just makes everything look like even more of a joke if this is actually accepted as the resolution. Please don't try and use the medical excuse again as your reason for floating around with words, because the answer is to just resign your head admin duties and fall back as a normal moderator for the time being which is what people have been saying all along.
 
This is the largest community outrage at an event that I can think of. Even Barney's actions, despite being painted in the brightest red and orange by the head admins, didn't generate this much mistrust (merely a vocal few). Players left, people withheld donations at the fundraiser (I can name people that withheld, between them, over $1000 due to this incident), and you lost what little trust some of the staff and players had in you completely.

tl;dr Don't skim over this. It's important, has some serious questions, and raises the thoughts and concerns of many players who are simply too scared to post about it.


Edited by Synergetrick, 30 September 2013 - 04:14 PM.

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#14 MasterCommaThe

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:06 PM

I don't think Tharine can be blamed for what other people said about the community...

 

Edit: I'd prefer a reply instead of downvotes, please.

...I meant to hit upvote for your "Edit: I'd prefer a reply", I missed, and can't find a way to undo my vote. So please take this message as my upvote.


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#15 Four_Down

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:45 PM

I could call witnesses, but I doubt you'd believe them either if you don't believe me.

No.

 

If you read my original reply, you can see that I have read what Taco said and have since edited my post.

 

I'd also like to point out that just because I don't believe you, doesn't mean I won't believe anyone else. You are implying that I should be able to take your word, however this is certainly not the case, you have shown that your word is no longer one that can be trusted.

 

Please respond instead of just downvoting.


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#16 AvadaKedavra

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 07:54 PM

This is all getting silly. When many of us joined these servers, they were stable and stong places to play with friends. At some point this last year, it has evolved far from that. It's always is frustrating to look at the small percentage of players who have control over everything. People have always kept quiet, fearing a ban, fearing people thinking poorly of them.

 

As far as I am aware, these servers were built to be simple, fast and friendly minecraft servers. It is a shame that it has had to come to this point, where it has become almost the opposite. People should have the ability to talk to admins, without fearing that they will be banned. Back in 2011, you could ask a head admin about an issue you had, and they would do their best to resolve it. Admins and mods alike, they always had your best interests at heart.

 

If change was possible, I would request that the servers get rid of this horrible dictator issue. Nobody should be called out, nobody should be shamed. It's a shame it's had to come to this, especially because this is a block computer game, where we place blocks in a formation, and at some point build things.


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#17 marting11

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:25 PM

People should have the ability to talk to admins, without fearing that they will be banned.

 

 

You can always bring out an issue to any of the mods and admins. If you have a problem with a particular mod or admin, ask another one. You shouldn't be scared to be banned if you ask about any issue in a decent and polite way.

 

 

Back in 2011, you could ask a head admin about an issue you had, and they would do their best to resolve it. Admins and mods alike, they always had your best interests at heart.

 

 

Are you implying this is not the case anymore?


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#18 Barlimore

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:30 PM

No.

 

If you read my original reply, you can see that I have read what Taco said and have since edited my post.

 

Please respond instead of just downvoting.

 

I just wanted to point out something from this post, it appears John had posted 30 minutes prior to your edit and had not downvoted your post.

 

I'm glad this topic and subsequent posts are here, for everyone's interests as some of the concerns raised have been stalling the community focus on other pressing matters and while I cannot speak for everyone, I've not come across any one person yet who doesn't have the same destination in mind. We'll work on getting there together, in other open topics like these.


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#19 Four_Down

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:57 PM

I just wanted to point out something from this post, it appears John had posted 30 minutes prior to your edit and had not downvoted your post.

 

I'm glad this topic and subsequent posts are here, for everyone's interests as some of the concerns raised have been stalling the community focus on other pressing matters and while I cannot speak for everyone, I've not come across any one person yet who doesn't have the same destination in mind. We'll work on getting there together, in other open topics like these.

The comment on downvoting wasn't aimed at John, it was aimed at some others.

 

Sorry for the confusion.


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#20 Barlimore

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:02 PM

The comment on downvoting wasn't aimed at John, it was aimed at some others.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Ah I see, thanks for clearing that one up. :-)


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#21 Synergetrick

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:52 AM

- snip -


I just downvoted you instead of upvoting by accident, my apologies.

It seems this occurs more than it probably should.
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#22 coolgamerovr90

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:58 AM

I just downvoted you instead of upvoting by accident, my apologies.

It seems this occurs more than it probably should.

I know how you feel :Creeper:


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#23 gsand

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:11 AM

 Back in 2011, you could ask a head admin about an issue you had, and they would do their best to resolve it. Admins and mods alike, they always had your best interests at heart.

 

Are you implying this is not the case anymore?

 

I think s/he came to that conclusion based on the leaked mod/admin chat logs. Their words were very clear.


Edited by gsand, 01 October 2013 - 01:12 AM.

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#24 Four_Down

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:59 AM

I know how you feel :Creeper:

Please explain to me what part of my post you disagree with.


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#25 CharGB

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 02:43 PM

rgSNiIw.png

Please explain to me what part of my post you disagree with.

I think that may of been an accident on cool's part, four. I'm not 100% but I'd say so due to this comment


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