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Hi everyone.

I'm going to get to the point fast. The survival server deserves another shot.

Survival was taken down just under 5 years ago due to the low activity levels. Since then we have had many discussions about bringing it back, however, it is important to understand that since the server was taken down, the entire gameplay mechanics for PvP has changed. In fact huge aspects of the game have been altered. You now have elytra, multiple villager trades, shields, tridents, crossbows, and new Redstone. The way we play the game is different. It is too far changed to reasonably say it just won't work.

The other potential solution we have often suggested was to create larger PvP regions in PvE, or to use creative for its PvP regions. This is why that won't work. Survival isn't just about player vs player, it is about survival. About trying to create your base in a manner that makes it highly defensive against attacks. Trying to build or travel around the map safely to avoid a fight. It is very much a high risk high gain server and that's what is great about it. That core element of the game wouldn't exist unless the entire server was in PvP mode.

We have been seeing new players joining quite frequently, especially since the emergence of the video on youtube by TheMisterEpic. When new players join, we want to be able to provide them with all the main aspects of Minecraft, creative mode, the cooperative PvE mode, and we also want to provide them with the ability to have a hostile game mode like survival where they can still enjoy building without the risk of their base being griefed like in chaos, but still maintain the threat of attack from other players. Or to go hunting on the server with the thought that they can become the best PvPer on there.

The way you moderate survival isn't too much more difficult than the way you moderate PvE, the only things you have to look out for are different types of mods such as aimbot. So training staff up for it would also not really be a problem. This is a topic many people feel very strongly about. We have the financial capability to try it out. If you are not trying these sorts of things you are not improving.

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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

I'm like 99% sure the survival server wasn't shut down because of minecraft mechanics

also X exists?

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1 minute ago, Rokku117 said:

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

I'm like 99% sure the survival server wasn't shut down because of minecraft mechanics

also X exists?

The first line of the wiki page states "Survival was a PvP-enabled server on nerd.nu. It was taken offline in September 2015 due to lack of popularity. A replacement for it may come out some time after the 1.9 update."

As for the existence of x.nerd.nu, yes it does exist, however, it is a different game style. There are no protections and the only rules are based around chat and using a hacked client. What people have been interested in is a dedicated survival server with protections.

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34 minutes ago, SkrapssparkS said:

The first line of the wiki page states "Survival was a PvP-enabled server on nerd.nu. It was taken offline in September 2015 due to lack of popularity.

We all know that's not the reason why it was shut down. Lack of popularity was a symptom, not the cause.

The only way a viable PVP server could be a thing is if the admin team tightened their stance on harassment and permanent bans. The toxic community that type of server breeds will just thrive in the current environment of 3000 chances.

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3 minutes ago, twilexis said:

We all know that's not the reason why it was shut down. Lack of popularity was a symptom, not the cause.

The only way a viable PVP server could be a thing is if the admin team tightened their stance on harassment and permanent bans. The toxic community that type of server breeds will just thrive in the current environment of 3000 chances.

What aspect encouraged harassment? If it was the killing and taking other players stuff then why do we have chaos? Harassment on the server should always be dealt with properly, there's no reason it should be allowed to slide on any server a survival server included. The game has changed drastically since survival was taken down, there is no way to accurately say it wouldn't work without trying it.

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     I miss survival.

     But it does take moderation time, and tech time, and infrastructure to setup. 3 things that no one has been willing to pour in as it previously didn't bring about a flourishing server. Look at how much time c45y put into the PvP server that happened after S closed, and it was never as big as S was even 1 rev before its end.

     I have a suggestion.

     What would you think if there was a multiverse world on P that had PvP enabled? And to clarify, I don't mean a walled area that people can go into and out of and go farm their stuff in P and fight in S. I mean a world with separate inventory but on the same server. It would take less resources and then modreqs and chat would be collected, meaning mods playing on P would see the modreqs coming from the S side, and the chats, and could communicate with both. The worlds don't need to be similar, the S side could have any map size, they could reset at different times, and could change separately as needed.

     Would that be something that the people who ask for S back be interested in? And if not, why not? What does that not offer?

Edited by zburdsal
pour and poor are different words
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2 minutes ago, zburdsal said:

 What would you think if there was a multiverse world on P that had PvP enabled? And to clarify, I don't mean a walled area that people can go into and out of and go farm their stuff in P and fight in S. I mean a world with separate inventory but on the same server. It would take less resources and then modreqs and chat would be collected, meaning mods playing on P would see the modreqs coming from the S side, and the chats, and could communicate with both. The worlds don't need to be similar, the S side could have any map size, they could reset at different times, and could change separately as needed.

     Would that be something that the people who ask for S back be interested in? And if not, why not? What does that not offer?

I think it is an interesting idea. My concern would be that we would still be creating an entire other server. It wouldn't have a domain name like s.nerd.nu so it could potentially be confusing for people, especially if they join PvE to find that there is a section that's not PvE and is moderated differently, this could take away from PvE and that's not my aim. Wouldn't it be easier to try to get a cross server modeq system if that's the main concern?

My plan isn't to bring back a survival server instantly, it would require a lot of planning and time. We'd have to set up the spawn, create the world and re-load some of the old plugins we have used, as well as look at potential new rule updates.

c45y's server initially provided positive feedback, it did lose player, but again, that was 4 years ago and Minecraft has developed vastly since then. Many players were very happy with the return of the server as it was their core connection with nerd.nu. I think if it were to come back it would have to be done right. It would have to be its own server and it would have to be thought out extensively before launch. If this fails, at least we have tried, and we have shown that player base that we are thinking about what they value on these servers.

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That sounds like it would take a far more substantial amount of tech work than is currently available. That alone would be enough to make it non-viable, truthfully.

Something that would require setting up a full additional server, full admins, techs for weeks, new and updated plugins, testing and more, as well as the suggested cross-server chat which has already been in the works for years, before I was even a moderator, sounds unreasonable for a server which had for the last year+ of its life very little play time.

As a reminder of the last revision of S, here's the carto: http://redditpublic.com/carto/survival/s27/carto/#/-77/64/87/-3/0/0

And here's a video of an arena in the 2nd to last rev of S, showing all of 11 people showing up including 4 admins at the time: 

 

I'm posting these to show that maybe we want to grow that player base back before devoting so much effort to it, rather than the other way around. Yes, minecraft has changed a lot since then but how about we setup an easy to make PvP world, something which could literally be set-up tonight if we had everyone working on it, and let it grow back to a full server if the player numbers are there?

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We have 24 moderators, finding a couple admins shouldn't be too tricky. You can find most of the plugins online at least ones that can keep us going. Testing of the plugins once they are added really shouldn't take too long at all. I believe the tech that was working on that plugin for the cross server was Ladycailin wasn't it? Which would explain why it's been a long time. In terms of the player base being low I have already addressed that, the game has changed dramatically, we can't accurately say we wouldn't have many players because we didn't before.

In terms of setting up a basic server that's not really got much devotion, it's not productive to set yourself up for disaster, the server wouldn't be any good so nobody would want to come and play on it and it would provide a reason to not attempt a real shot at the server for many more years. 

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It's been just under a month, I don't want this conversation to die. It'd be very useful to have some feedback from head admins and tech admins to have a proper grasp on the problems we'd face to bring survival back.

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such a negative comment, however i am glad to inform this player that we have indeed, been speaking to admins and have got input, very constructive input at that, if you were more engaged with the servers maybe you would have known this, as you have not been seen on the servers in the past 4 months 🙂

Edited by shanty_sniper
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I'm not opposed to S coming back some day, but it would have to be done right. Any half-measures would just lead to the server dying out within a few weeks/months. In my mind, a properly-resurrected S would require its own server, not a multiverse or section of another server's map.

There are several other issues that are all solveable, but many would require significant discussion first:

1. Staffing:
  A PvP server requires a lot of time and energy to moderate. While PvE has its share of claim disputes, x-rayers, and hackers, PvP also introduces the issues of combat logging, base griefing, pvp hacks, as well as higher tension in chat (See issue 2). Finding/training a group of mods/admins who are willing to deal with these issues is possible, especially if we work out the issues further down the list, but it's not easy, and it definitely can't happen overnight.


2. Community Standards:

There's a line between friendly competitive joking and abusive trash talk, and that line is unfortunately different for every player. The more we try to define that line, the more we'll see rules lawyers trying to dance around it. There have to be clear expectations from the very beginning: What behaviors will the community crack down on, and what will they tolerate? What level of moderation is expected from the staff?


3. Past History:
Often times when Survival is brought up in public chat on the servers these days, it devolves into the same old arguments again and again - usually variations of "S PlAyErS wErE aLl ToXiC!" and "tHe AdMiNs DiDnT cArE aBoUt Us!". There was a lot of bad blood back then. Instead of dredging up drama from 5+ years ago, its best to just learn from it and move on. That includes anyone who's thinking of making joke comments in this thread, by the way.

 

As for game mechanics (revision length, elytra, combat logging, respawning, portals, etc,) there's no way to cover every single base in advance, but the more we talk about it, the easier it will be to get a clear picture of what the userbase wants to see. Those kinds of discussions can happen later, after the main question (is there enough community/staff interest in even committing to this?) is settled.
 

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I support bringing it back, but with bi-weekly wipes. 

 

It's a good server, but the problem with past instances were the power would become unbalanced and those who were underground were found by undetectable unfair measures. 

 

 

It became a game of you can run, but you can't hide and skill didn't matter. 

 

Or disable armor. 

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On 10/19/2020 at 7:14 PM, ThelVadumee said:

perhaps a /pvp command on p and c that warped you to a arena in a multiverse for combat would work

Being in an arena doesn't provide the wider appeal of Survival. It's the fact it's its own server and you have to adjust your every action to the increased threat that's appealing. Survival isn't just about PvP it is about surviving and fortifying and extreme levels of teamwork.

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On 9/19/2020 at 7:48 PM, fazaden said:

I'm not opposed to S coming back some day, but it would have to be done right. Any half-measures would just lead to the server dying out within a few weeks/months. In my mind, a properly-resurrected S would require its own server, not a multiverse or section of another server's map.

There are several other issues that are all solveable, but many would require significant discussion first:

1. Staffing:
  A PvP server requires a lot of time and energy to moderate. While PvE has its share of claim disputes, x-rayers, and hackers, PvP also introduces the issues of combat logging, base griefing, pvp hacks, as well as higher tension in chat (See issue 2). Finding/training a group of mods/admins who are willing to deal with these issues is possible, especially if we work out the issues further down the list, but it's not easy, and it definitely can't happen overnight.


2. Community Standards:

There's a line between friendly competitive joking and abusive trash talk, and that line is unfortunately different for every player. The more we try to define that line, the more we'll see rules lawyers trying to dance around it. There have to be clear expectations from the very beginning: What behaviors will the community crack down on, and what will they tolerate? What level of moderation is expected from the staff?


3. Past History:
Often times when Survival is brought up in public chat on the servers these days, it devolves into the same old arguments again and again - usually variations of "S PlAyErS wErE aLl ToXiC!" and "tHe AdMiNs DiDnT cArE aBoUt Us!". There was a lot of bad blood back then. Instead of dredging up drama from 5+ years ago, its best to just learn from it and move on. That includes anyone who's thinking of making joke comments in this thread, by the way.

 

As for game mechanics (revision length, elytra, combat logging, respawning, portals, etc,) there's no way to cover every single base in advance, but the more we talk about it, the easier it will be to get a clear picture of what the userbase wants to see. Those kinds of discussions can happen later, after the main question (is there enough community/staff interest in even committing to this?) is settled.
 

Sorry I've not been hugely active recently. I've been moving house and haven't had much time to play. I'll try and provide some ideas on how to combat some of these problems.

Point 1: Staffing. There are a few main differences one of which is combat logging. I believe we have plugins that can tell you if someone logged out during combat. I'd say the rule should be considered broken if they are reported and it is confirmed by the combat logging plugin. I believe it should be a 3 strike system as it's not the worst rule in the world to break, 1st time doing it should result in a note being added. 2nd note should updated to show it is the 2nd time. 3rd offence should result in a short ban. These notes should be wiped at the beginning of each revision. Another aspect that is hard to detect is the use of hacked clients. From what I remember, there are a few tells someone is using aimbot etc. I think if a small server is set up for staff before hand and some demonstrations are shown of people using these clients it would be beneficial to help train people to spot it in person. I'd imagine there'd be some tutorials online also. If all else fails I know some players do know how to spot hacked clients and I'm sure they'd be willing to show the staff.

 

Point 2: Community Standards: In terms of chat, there's a difference between abusive language to a player and winding someone up about a kill. All regular rules about hate speech would apply. Any situation that would be considered bullying should be dealt with accordingly just as though it were on creative or pve. Chat is tricky as people often dish out more than they can take. I think any chat that is reported if it's not blatantly against the general server rules should be reviewed by at least 2 mods to create a fair decision on how it should be handled be it a warning/ note/ ban. That removes the whole "X mod just doesn't like me" argument. An area that does wind people up is the idea of being targeted and spawn killed. You cannot ban people killing at spawn, however, if one player kills someone at least 3 times in close succession from spawn to prevent them from being able to play, they should be warned, and kicked if it continues. If they continue after that it should be considered harassment and the player banned. All be it a short ban as it's not exactly high on the scale of harassment.

 

Point 3: Past history. I couldn't agree more, that's why this server should almost be considered a new server. PvP has changed drastically since it was last up. Personal issues between players should not be a reflection on the servers the individuals play on. To prevent the "admins don't care about us" we'd need active predominant survival moderators on the server. I believe a lot of grief came about as survival players thought they weren't getting much representation in the staff. We need to mod survival players, that's not to say lower standards for moderators, it means current staff must actively try to play survival to be able to identify good candidates and not leave it to guess work. This problem shouldn't be so much of an issue now since we take the suggest a moderator element seriously now and don't just send you to a funny video. We need to listen carefully to what the survival players are asking and adjust the server accordingly, they know their stuff!

 

Point 4: smaller details. As you said a lot of these can be handled later listening to what the survival community ask for. Although as a start I believe relatively short revisions would be a more useful idea as fresh starts provide players opportunities to get involved with the server and allow players that might have joined late one rev to have a good base location on the next rev after a time period that is not over a year. I'd suggest 2-3 months a rev. Keep the map small aswell, the map needs to be able to serve as a pvp map without everyone vanishing to far off reaches of the map where nobody will ever find them. This could potentially change later depending on what the players want.

 

These suggestions are exactly that suggestions, hopefully people will have better ideas than these. I've just thrown in what I think would be good. 

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