PvE Rail System

[SwitchViewz]

Hey guys, since were on the topic of nether portals I figured I'd bring up something else about rails.

 

As far as I know the current plan is to do CARBON again next rev, which I am totally fine with. I just have a few minor issues with the current CARBON System I feel we should talk about.

 

1.) Current place of CARBON Spawn Station

In my opinion I have a small problem with where the current CARBON station is at. It is located on the North side of spawn with no indication that it is even over there. If new players join and want to take a rail somewhere they have to ask where a station is and hope there is someone online willing to help them. On the current rev the spawn rail station is CLOSED and out of service. My suggestion for next rev is to have a rail station at spawn except have it be player run. We could even have players design the rail station to fit into the theme of spawn. We could also do a mix of CARBON and CARTS to allow everyone to connect.

 

2.) How long it took to set up CARBON

For me it felt like it has taken a really long time to get CARBON actually up and running. And even so not all towns have CARBON. Next rev if we do something suggested that was suggested in the nether portal topic then rails are going to become even more important. How can we get CARBON up and running faster? What can we do to make the process go easier? Is there anything we can do besides "have more people help"?

 

3.) The complexity reputation of CARBON

CARBON is known as this "vast and complex system" and people seem scared to get into it. I was one of the those people until TheRandomnatrix helped explain it to me and its really not that difficult to understand. I think this is part of the problem why it takes us so long to get the system up and running. To many people think that its a hard system to understand, especially when compared to CARTS. We need to find someway to make CARBON easily explainable and a easy way on how to set up the system. Maybe perhaps we can make the wiki page better? Right now one of the steps is just "make units every 100 blocks." What exactly are we building every 100 blocks? Or maybe even have a video tutorial?

 

That's all I can think about for the moment. I will add more if I come up with anything else.

[TheRandomnatrix]

I'm always open to suggestions and concerns. To hopefully answer some of yours with semi-dumbed down, albeit lengthy answers:

 

TL;DR) Spawn station is messy and I agree it could be done better. If towns want a nice rail system, then they need to pitch in too. While tutorials exist, making them simpler and easier to access might be good. 

 

1.) Spawn station's location was very messy this rev for many reasons. I'd initially planned to avoid doing it until Zuziza got excited with the idea of spawn having one, so I went along with it. While Zuz tried to be accommodating(and was by all means not her fault), between avoiding all the embassies and spawn protection, the unique quadrant routing it used, getting the four carbon lines coming out of it to the loop totaling at least 2400 blocks of smartline, and being already dedicated to finishing the loop itself, it was just something that took forever to do. the only reason it was finished was because S_W worked like crazy to get it operational.

 

That's not to say it is an impossible feat, but I think it'll require its own special love and attention from someone. I've been debating using it as a CARTS-like station for underground lines to the CARBON towns, then having the carbon loop connect to it later on to avoid having to make a large trip around the loop to go somewhere.

 

In regards to spawn station actually being in spawn but player run, it looks good on paper, I honestly don't see that working well. I or another rail leader would have to basically coordinate with the PAdmins every rev to ensure that there's enough room for a station, then micromanage that station over the course of the rev. This opens up room for accusations of favoritism which I feel would be somewhat true. I communicated at length with buzzie and tom over my concerns regarding the implications of a spawn CARBON station well before rev12 was even up, and I feel it would just cause too many political problems. It sucks a lot to have to work around spawn protections, but I feel that's the only way of doing it currently.

 

2.) This one's been weighing heavily on my mind. There were a lot of good people helping out with donations and small offers of work, but it just wasn't enough. We were essentially 3-5ish dedicated people working on a network intended to serving all the existing towns, and while CARBON greatly reduced the workload needed to produce that result, it's just ridiculous to think that that few people have to do all that work in a short amount of time.

 

Because it took so long, a lot of builds ended up encroaching on the lines making it very uncomfortable to protect them. Most of the "CARBON doesn't work!" complaints were because some player griefed a line without knowing any better. It's a huge pain in the ass for me to constantly have to go out and repair the lines which get griefed on a near daily basis. Yes, daily. This could have easily been prevented by getting the infrastructure up and running ASAP so it can get protected before builds surround them.

 

I recognize that the process of connecting isn't the most streamlined, and a lot of towns were just getting introduced to CARBON this rev, but I strongly encourage those more experienced towns to not only do their own connection in the future, but reduce the workload needed to make the loop itself so those services it offers can be provided sooner.

 

3.) Just like CARTS, I imagine there will always be people who view it as way over their heads. I definitely think the wiki needs more work, however my editing skills are needing(evident in this wall of text of a post) and I'd do an incredibly poor job of making it easy to read. If someone wants to take a crack at it I'd be very appreciative. Overall though, if people have questions about CARBON just come to me or another knowledgeable person about it. If they're willing to put effort into it, I'm more than happy to teach people how to do things.

 

Addendum.) Now a lot of this probably sounds like complaining on my part, but I'm just trying to outline a lot of the problems we faced while trying to make the loop this rev. I'd like to address these in the next network so we can hopefully have a bigger, more reliable system. I welcome constructive criticism on how to make things better.

[robr]

it probably doesn't help that the spawn station location isn't really naturally visible from the building.. behind it and off a cliff, whereas if you come out the 'front' of the building you're greeted with a gentle slope down to the UMC farms/SEA CARTS station ..

 

that being said, i do think the complexity and size of it has reduced its adoption - obviously not talking for others, but for me when we got around to being ready to spin rail up, our redstone master was out and it was much easier for me to figure out CARTS and it's fire/forget concept than to try and tackle copying the still-in-progress spawn station.. (and yes, i did built up the tutorial on our planning server, but without something to connect to it was still greek to this redstone ignoramus..)

 

what would help? a few things i could think of:

- have spawn station incorporated into the actual spawn build from day 1: if it's the primary system we're going to all use, then let's not rely on just the users to try and build up the system from scratch

- schematics for download: i have a dream that schematica will update Soon and this would go a long way for us idiots to be able to build once we have the resources

- a spoke/hub or smaller system: if there was a toned down version of the station we could put in various quadrants, i.e. one that can only send to a subset of destinations that was more compact, absolutely no clue if this is possible/reasonable (see redstone ignoramus label above), but if it wasn't always such a major undertaking, i think adoption would be a lot more widespread..

[theclefe]

Regarding the SEA Carts station, that was built as a result of many towns concerned about spawn access.  All of us had lines to spawn that popped out in hidden caverns and entryways.  The station was just a way to consolidate that and make it more manageable.  

 

I wasn't aware that there was never a plan to have a Carbon spawn station.  I think that is a mistake.  I think the primary goal of every town at the start of a rev is to get a rail link to spawn.  It seems inefficient to build the network in a way that doesn't capitalize on that desire and effort.  I spoke a bit with Random about ways to make the process a bit more user friendly and ways to enlist town support.  Hopefully he can implement them next rev.  I'm lost on a lot of the technical aspects of it at the moment, but I could certainly help design a simple checklist for towns looking to link up.

 

In terms of workforce, if we agree to go with Carbon again next rev then I've spoken with Tyrangiels about forgoing Rose's Carts network next rev and fully supporting it.  Carbon is one of those projects where we need everyone on board to make it work.  

 

I do think there needs to be a spawn rail station and I'll happily take up the charge if no one else wants to run it.  I was very disappointed in Rev 11 when Rose couldn't connect to spawn, so building a large, inclusive station is something I really enjoy (As you can see from Rose station).  This rev was a bit wild, wild west.  To compliment a massive server-wide project like Carbon, I think we do need a well maintained spawn station.  There should be no politics involved.  If you dig the tunnel and lay the rail, then you should have a connection.  If Random wants it to start as a carts station and transfer over to carbon, I think that would work wonderfully. Ideally we'd like it to be part of spawn in some way, but if that's not possible, I'm sure we can work with Zuz to find an ideal spot.

Edited January 23, 2014 by theclefe

[TheRandomnatrix]

Was doing some more thinking about it and was wondering if anyone would be against the idea of two spawn stations next rev: one CARTS-like for personal connections with next to no special requirements, and the other being reserved entirely for towns that comply to CARBON standards. The "personal connection" station could also serve as a buffer for towns wanting quick, easy access to spawn at the start without going through hoops to get it, before moving to the CARBON station later on. Unsure how big the secondary station would be so as to reduce redundancy. Thoughts?

[SwitchViewz]

I like that idea, perhaps start out with a large CARTS station with several lined up next to each other or even stacked on top of each other. Towns that want access right away can hook into the CARTS station, and will hook up later on to CARBON can do so, and as CARBON is set up and things get connected we can remove there line from the CARTS station. Then once were several months into the rev and CARBON is the primary thing you can have one or two standard CARTS stations for things like say mob grinders or smaller towns that aren't hooked up to CARBON.

 

This still leaves one problem however, how are people going to know about the rail station and how to get to it, especially new players? If it has been decided not to have one within spawn to do reasons then how are we going to deal with that?

[ne0codex]

Was doing some more thinking about it and was wondering if anyone would be against the idea of two spawn stations next rev: one CARTS-like for personal connections with next to no special requirements, and the other being reserved entirely for towns that comply to CARBON standards. The "personal connection" station could also serve as a buffer for towns wanting quick, easy access to spawn at the start without going through hoops to get it, before moving to the CARBON station later on. Unsure how big the secondary station would be so as to reduce redundancy. Thoughts?

Yes please. Some of us don't care to setup carbon networks, beginning communities probably won't, either, until they are sufficiently invested in the idea, so this is a good suggestion so that those who want focus on carbon can do so without hoarding spawn access to those who just want to build other stuff yet want to have non-carbon transit.

[kitcatbar]

I like that idea, perhaps start out with a large CARTS station with several lined up next to each other or even stacked on top of each other. Towns that want access right away can hook into the CARTS station, and will hook up later on to CARBON can do so, and as CARBON is set up and things get connected we can remove there line from the CARTS station. Then once were several months into the rev and CARBON is the primary thing you can have one or two standard CARTS stations for things like say mob grinders or smaller towns that aren't hooked up to CARBON.

 

This still leaves one problem however, how are people going to know about the rail station and how to get to it, especially new players? If it has been decided not to have one within spawn to do reasons then how are we going to deal with that?

 

We (the padmins) are still discussing whether or not we want to keep spawn rails in the hands of the player next rev. While it's undecided, I think it would be wise to plan for it. I feel like that was the main problem this rev. Players are perfectly capable of building well functioning rail stations, as we see every rev. It seems like the lack of spawn rails just caught people off guard, so it wasn't properly planned for.

[theclefe]

Kitcat, I think a decentralized location also caused some issues.  We were able to get the SEA station up early enough for decent real estate, but even now people have trouble finding it much like they do with the CARBON station.  I know Marcus and I requested to use the "closed station" space for rails.  I'm all for a player-run station, but I do prefer it be centralized with appropriate access and signage at spawn.  If we can make a super carbon/carts station underneath spawn that is player-run, I think that's the best of both worlds.

Edited January 29, 2014 by theclefe

[SwitchViewz]

Kitcat, I think a decentralized location also caused some issues.  We were able to get the SEA station up early enough for decent real estate, but even now people have trouble finding it much like they do with the CARBON station.  I know Marcus and I requested to use the "closed station" space for rails.  I'm all for a player-run station, but I do prefer it be centralized with appropriate access and signage at spawn.  If we can make a super carbon/carts station underneath spawn that is player-run, I think that's the best of both worlds.

I brought this up in my opening post but the idea was turned down to the reasons that Random stated. It would be nice to see if we could have this reconsidered for next rev and have something worked out. Another idea, maybe instead of having it in spawn, have signs or something (item frames?) in spawn pointing to the outside of spawn rail station?

[TheRandomnatrix]

Aside from spawn connection, I've been exploring some other options for streamlining connections. I'll most likely use these two features in the next network.

 

Quadrant based encoding: The first and second bits will pertain to the quadrant of the loop the connection is in. This will hopefully reduce the need for CW/CCW bits, albeit at the cost of limiting the number of connections in each quadrant to 8 destinations.

 

Putting trapped chests at switch tracks: A common practice some people like to do is put trapped chests above rail switches, which you can easily open as you pass by to go to a destination as you pass it. I think this would be a good transition at the start for towns as they could still use the loop even though CARBON is being worked on, and would be a fallback if for whatever reason the redstone never gets finished. I'm hoping this would encourage towns to make a connection, and keep them invested more in helping out with the loop. I could also allow for personal connections attached to the loop that don't have an ID using this method, provided the person wanting to make a connection talks with me or another rail person first. A benefit of adding CARBON later of course would be that you could afk on the rails without having to wait for your stop.

 

Another piece of news to share is tc_chris has designed a 31 button CARBON station that improves sign readability a lot more, which I'm hoping will reduce people pressing the wrong button(happens a lot more than you'd think)

[SwitchViewz]

Quadrant based encoding: The first and second bits will pertain to the quadrant of the loop the connection is in. This will hopefully reduce the need for CW/CCW bits, albeit at the cost of limiting the number of connections in each quadrant to 8 destinations.

 

This sounds like a good idea I only see one problem with it. What happens when there is more then 8 towns in one quadrant of the map? Such as right now you have Whiteoak, Vinhaven, Pico, Rose City, Driftwood, Manta, Baktun, Port80, and Metal Mountains all in the SE section of the map.

[TheRandomnatrix]

This sounds like a good idea I only see one problem with it. What happens when there is more then 8 towns in one quadrant of the map? Such as right now you have Whiteoak, Vinhaven, Pico, Rose City, Driftwood, Manta, Baktun, Port80, and Metal Mountains all in the SE section of the map.

That was my main argument against it as well, and why I didn't want it done this rev. However, S_W pointed out that it would be pretty easy to add some exceptions in the routing logic that would account for this. At the very least it'd be no worse than our current system of either doing CW/CCW bits or adding exceptions for all desired towns. It's just another option we can add that will hopefully reduce the work needed.

 

SEA is also kind of an unnaturally large cluster of towns in one quadrant, which I doubt will happen in future revs unless towns specifically try to do something like it again.

[S_W]

Just saw this and figured that I should probably respond to a few things.

 

 

Overall, I think CARBON this revision was mainly a learning experience.  There were many mistakes made but it also shows that CARBON can work on this large of a scale.  IMO, here are the main issues that were encountered this rev

 

- It took a long time for CARBON to get up and running.  I will take some blame for this as I focused on the Argoth line in the beginning instead of the network.  Next revision, I plan to hand off the Argoth rail duties to someone else so I can focus on CARBON.  (Sorry Argoth)

- Due to it taking a long time, a lot of the lines have to weave around quite a bit.  This made it near impossible to protect everything.  As Random mentioned, the issues that arise on a day-to-day basis are 99% of the time caused by grief.  Getting the network up and running ASAP will be key for next revision

- Very little standardization.  I plan to standardize as much of the network as possible which should hopefully reduce inconsistencies that cause problems with the system.  From working on it so much this revision, it is clear that standards are needed for the network.  

- Spawn station was a mess.  Multiple times I went over to the spawn station to try and figure out how it could be salvaged and would always walk away.  One day i just decided that I'd go all out and remove what was there and start over.  It took quite awhile to come up with a good design, but it seems to be working well.  Being that spawn is a main connection people want to make right away, the fact that the spawn CARBON station wasn't up early in the rev, I think was a big reason people avoided it.

- Many unexpected issues cropped up.  I dont think anyone knew how much of a problem the CW/CCW routing system would cause as well as routing off the loop to multiple cities while utilizing the same line (ex: rose/manta connection).  There was also an initial plan to have 4 Cardinal stations, but that ended up being scrapped.  Just overall, a lot of things that were unexpected due to it being new for this rev.

- Cities don't seem motivated to use rails.  I'm not sure if this is due to horses being introduces or if people prefer portals, but some of the major cities don't even have a rail station or any outbound rails.

 

 

I enjoy working on CARBON quite a bit, even though it can be stressful at times, so I would like to handle the spawn station next revision although any help would be greatly appreciated.  I also plan to focus primarily on CARBON, so can help a lot form the start.  Usually, the main hold ups are gathering enough materials, mostly redstone, so donations usually drive how quickly the network is put together.   I am more than willing to help cities out with their station or the lines if they need help and I know many others are willing to help as well.