[AC] Creative Revision 27 Planning

[Dumbo52]

So, we should start planning for the next Creative revision. Here are a couple of ideas from me on how we can improve Creative; let me know what you guys think:
 
Books
The current rulebook on C is 77 pages long. While only 12 of those pages contain the actual rules (the rest is about banned items, commands, mod requests, FAQs, and useful links), I've seen too many people open it, look at the number of pages, and throw it out without getting to the table of contents. It's too long, and I think our current system could do with an overhaul. I suggest we create a setup that is more friendly to both the users and the admins.
 
I propose that each server should have a list of available books. Admins would be able to edit this list from in-game; for example, running the command /book publish <name> while holding a book would add the currently held book to the list under the specified name. Players would spawn with a "simplerules" book which contains four or five pages of basic explanations of the rules. Players will also be able to use the /book command such that:

• Running /book <name> will give the player a copy of the specified book.
• Running /book <name1>,[name2],[name3],... will give the player a book compiled of the multiple specified books, complete with a dynamically generated title page and table of contents at the beginning.
• We would additionally have a couple of aliases defined. For example, /rulebook would alias to /book simplerules, and /guidebook would give a compilation of all available books aside from "simplerules". This would also give text from the book "rules", an expansion upon "simplerules" which details all of our rules and their basic corollaries. We may also want players to spawn with this book as well, to make it easier for new players who are legitimately interested in playing to get started.

All in all, I think a change like this would make the servers a lot less intimidating to new players by cutting down on the amount of information it's necessary for them to read at first. This should also make things easier for the server admins, eliminating the process of having to go through the techs to update a rulebook, in addition to making our rulebook format more consistent (I've noticed that all three of our rulebooks look very different.) I'd be interested in hearing what some of the other server admins' opinions are on this.
 
Spawn
From talking with Marting and LetsB, it sounds like we might want a spawn that's a part of spawn city - possibly one of the buildings in the city, as opposed to the chateau that was built in the middle of the lake. We might also want to consider placing spawn near one edge of spawn city, rather than in the center; this would allow players to explore spawn city by traveling in one direction, or go out into the open world by traveling in the opposite direction.
 
Spawn City
Spawn city this revision turned out to be a pretty great success. I think we should try to do something similar for revision 27 - something fairly realistic, where the plot locations and roads actually make sense.
 
Roads
I love our current road design, but I am worried about stuff like this happening again. I'd rather we not have to plow through anyone's build, so I'm wondering what people think of pre-building the cardinal highways. We should then be able to work on secondary roads around the map throughout the revision. Since these roads would be more flexible (and probably smaller), it would be significantly easier to route them around the map without interfering with anyone else's builds.
 
Map Size
I liked the size we used this revision (starting at 3200x3200). I think we may want to consider switching back to our system of expanding the map when we feel the need to, though, instead of using a schedule. There's no way of knowing ahead of time how rapidly people will build or when the map will need an expansion, so it can be difficult to judge when the map will need to be expanded again. There have also been instances in which people have complained about the map expanding too early while there was still a lot more building area available. It also seems like no one's really been paying close attention to the expansion schedule in addition to it being difficult for new players to find, so I don't know how much good it's been doing.
 
For this reasons, I'd be interested in once again expanding only when we feel that the map is getting a little crowded. If we announce these expansions a week or so in advance, that should be sufficient notice to players.
 
Reset Date
This revision began at the end of March, so some time in early to mid September makes the most sense to me. Let me know what you guys think of this.
 
The End
 We're currently using the Nether as our alternate dimension. However, I don't think it's worth it to continue this next revision. Hardly anyone's built there, so there's little point in keeping it next revision if no one's going to use it. Instead, I think we should create a blank End dimension.
 
This would create an area in which to put pretty much anything that doesn't belong in the overworld. This could include moved builds, speedbuild winners, plot-based build contests, temporary events, and possibly BigTown (which I believe was having a little trouble expanding this revision). We may also want to include some minigames in that dimension, if we decide to pursue that idea.

Terrain
It sounds like people generally liked this revision's map, so I'd like to try a similar combination of vanilla, amplified, and WorldPainted terrain. However, a bit more WorldPainted terrain than we currently have sounds like it could please some people. I'll begin looking for some good seeds to use. I'd also be happy to begin preparing next revision's map as well, unless one of you would prefer to do it. Once we get a map prepared, I'll be able to host it on my server again, but only until the end of August or so.

Mobs
We've discussed this together a little, and it sounds like for the most part, we're ready to take the next step in giving mobs to players. Techs, let us know if there are any problems with this plan, but I think players should be able to spawn a limited number of pets. Now, there are a couple ways to implement a cap that I can think of, and I'd like to know which one you guys think would be the most effective.

•  Chunk-based. Each chunk allows a limited number of animals to be spawned in it. This would cap the number of animals per chunk, effectively providing an upper limit on the amount of lag due to mobs (since only mobs in loaded chunks have any effect on server performance), but this severely limits the ways in which players can interact with these animals. Additionally, this gives players little accountability for their animals; it would be impossible to attribute any animal to an owner, and as such, there would be no way of 'protecting' animals, since no chunk has an owner.
• Region-based. Each WorldGuard region allows a limited number of animals to be spawned in it. This provides reasonable assurance that there won't be too many mobs in one place, in addition to giving each mob a set of 'owners'. To further deal with possibly lag sources, the per-region mob cap might even be determined by the size of the region. Animals would still be limited to their respective regions, though, meaning that they couldn't be carried elsewhere by their owners, and we would need to constantly check animal movement to ensure that they don't exit their region - a task which may exert a significant amount of stress on the server.
• Player-based. Each player is given a limited number of animal slots. This obviously gives each animal an individual owner, but it also runs the risk of allowing a large number of animals into a small area, if a number of players were to make a concerted effort to lag the server. Thus, some control would need to be given to staff to be able to despawn nearby mobs if anything gets out of hand.

I'm currently in favor of #3, though I'd like to see what you guys and the techs think. Such a system could also give us leverage when it comes to giving prizes for contests. For example, one of the prizes from winning a speedbuilding contest could be an extra animal slot or something.

Inventories
If we go through with this idea, players will be able to use an enhanced/personalized form of kits. Using commands, players would be able to save and load personal inventories. This could be useful when, for example, players wish to switch between builds and want to quickly get the materials they were last using on the other build, or if players want the same weapons they used when they were last PVPing. A player is currently working on writing this plugin.
 
Unbanning Items
I'm in favor of unbanning more projectiles, including snowballs, eggs (without the chickens), and fishing rods. I think these are advertised in the rulebook as lag-inducing, but any lag caused by these is insignificant. Also, let's allow /me again. I believe we asked the techs to earlier, but it looks like it's still disabled.

I'm almost certainly missing some topics that still need to be discussed, so please add further points of discussion to this thread.

[Cyotie911]

Hey, I had an idea that I wanted to share,  Not trying to hijack this thread and didn't want to butt into your designs.  I was just think, what about doing a build contest, and then making a small spawn city for the next rev and put the best builds in the spawn city with spawn at the center.  That way, when players login for the first time, they can see some of the best builds from the last rev as they leave spawn.

 

Anyways, just an idea of mine.

[LetsBFehr]

Books

I really like this idea. Simplify the introduction process.

 

Spawn

It's time for a small spawn.  The current spawn requires a player to fly 450 blocks before he can place one.  Maybe have 1 or 2 streets ahead of spawn, with contest winners, then have it open behind that.  Spawn City can be all around spawn, maybe with Spawn being a big town hall in the middle plaza?

 

Roads

I'm undecided on the pre-made roads concept.

 

Map Size

Start out small, expand when needed.  I really liked how the smaller map to start required players to interact a bit more, although it did lead to some conflicts.

 

Reset Date

Sounds Good

 

The End/Nether

Honestly I'm against both of these.  The last two revisions nobody has built anything in them, and people just aren't interested.  Even with the end I feel like it'll be abandoned after a week and just look derpy like the nether now.  

 

Terrain

I loved the terrain this rev, and would like to keep it similar.  Maybe a few more areas of flatland like you suggested, but besides that it's good.

 

Mobs

I like the chunk based idea (Number 2, there isn't a number 1).  Is there a way with this to track who kills an animal?  Does S or P have something like that?  Option 3 isn't my favorite because it requires regions to be made, I kind of like the idea of people have to find mobs, not just ask an admin to spawn them.  Option 4 works well too, since I don't really see players having an animal-fest, although it could happen.

 

What about enabling ALL mobs?  I don't see the harm in them, and they could provide a little more fun and variety.  As long as you remember to turn damages off so a certain fire-breathing mob doesn't tear through spawn when you accidentally spawn it for a friend.

 

Inventories

this all sounds good

 

Unbanning Items

As we discussed earlier I like all these changes.  I also would like to propose the official move to /modmode only for moderating purposes.

[marting11]

Sorry for the late reply, I was on vacation.

Books
Not sure about this one. To me it looks like a complicated solution to a simple problem.
Shouldn't we just make the rulebook 10 pages maximum with a link to the full rules @ nerd.nu/rules?
I don't think the C rules are very complicated anyway.
Less is more.

Spawn
I really like the idea of having spawn city "off center". We could quickly direct players right out of spawn to free land or spawn city. And yes this rev's spawn city takes a little too much space around spawn.

Spawn city
The suburban area of this rev had a great success even if it was weirdly placed in a corner of spawn city. It was pretty much filled really fast. I was thinking that next spawn city could be pretty much a suburb, with a couple special plots for shops, strip malls, police station, fire station, industries, etc. Kinda inspired by Spleef city. The spawn itself would be a pretty modest town hall.
Here's an example. Obviously the roads would be straight but you see what I mean.
Let me know what you think of this idea. If we go with that, I will plan an actual layout instead of improvising it like I did this rev.



Roads
Not sure either about this. I could be in favor of one road that goes through spawn that would be completed in one axis. A simple road (not a major highway) is also easier for players to create other roads that connect to it.

Creative had prebuilt roads before, but they were more pathways than actual roads meant to be semi-realistic. So this would be a test to see how the players use the road and build around it.

Map size
All good. Switching back to the old way sounds good too.

Reset date
Yes.

End/Nether
I agree that the Nether is not worth keeping. I like the End idea though. Speedbuild winners & temporarily moved builds are a pain to relocate now. I don't think Bigtown should be there though. It should be a place for temporary things, not really a building area.

Terrain
Yup the vanilla + worldpainted combination is pretty awesome. Heavily forested areas tend to be unused so we could remove trees or use a seed that has less forests.

Mobs
I'm in favor of whatever creates the less lag & stress on the server possible.
Mobs are not absolutely necessary anyway so we have plenty of time to discuss that again, it does not have to be ready for the next reset.

Inventories
Sounds pretty useful.

Unbanning items
Yes. and yes.
 

[marting11]

Interesting seeds

5225585912529744905



-6796125611320075608



3608226457290333584



4720080459534517961

[LetsBFehr]

I like all of those seeds.  The second one is the best.

 

I made this 3D model of spawn when I had a couple free hours yesterday.  The building could be a town hall instead for a more suburban theme.  It would be 2-3 blocks away from the border, with a central mall out the front doors running the length until you get to the border.

 

Some more rule changes that we could implement:

-include allowing flowing water (see Dumbo's suggestion here: https://nerd.nu/forums/index.php?/topic/2257-possible-changes/)

-Make brew stands work, why not?

[marting11]

6378218805752454956

[Dumbo52]

6378218805752454956

 

That one's pretty good.

A couple more seeds I found.

 

If you guys would like, I'm willing to create this map, too (WorldPainting and importing amplified areas). I'll document my work so that you're aware of my process when the next map needs to be created. I'll also be able to host the planning server until the end of August, at which point I won't be able to host anymore.

[Dumbo52]

Mobs

I'm in favor of whatever creates the less lag & stress on the server possible.

Mobs are not absolutely necessary anyway so we have plenty of time to discuss that again, it does not have to be ready for the next reset.

 

We might want to get some tech admins to weigh in on whether one method would be any more demanding on the server than the others. From my experience, mobs won't put too much stress on the server if there are only a relatively small number of them loaded at a time (which I expect), but if a bunch of players group together, there is potential for a lot of mobs to be loaded at the same time, if we go with the per-player limit. A couple ways to further combat possible lag issues:

1. Apply a per-chunk mob limit on top of the per-player limit. Players can spawn mobs up to their own limit, but whenever a chunk is unloaded, any mobs within it over the chunk limit will be sent into limbo.
2. Periodically cull mobs belonging to inactive players. If a player hasn't been online in at least a week or so, all of their mobs will be despawned.

Depending on what the cadmins want, I'm willing to start writing this plugin, and we can test it out on the planning server.

[LetsBFehr]

Okay since we have jchance here and on board I think it's time to start going through and prepping the new revision.  Here is what we have so far:

 

SEED:

The 3rd seed marting posted:

6378218805752454956

 

SPAWN

Suburban setting headed by marting.  Small town hall for spawn taking up a block.  Offset spawn so border of spawn is within 100 blocks of the town hall.

 

ROADS

Pre built Cardinal roads.  

 

SIZE

old way, start small and expand when needed.

 

Other Dimensions

Work in Progress.  I personally feel like it's never used and always wasted, and even if stuff is moved there it will never be seen.

 

Tech Changes

Unban the following: Projectiles (eggs, snowballs). 

Enable Fishing

Dumbo-written plugin for animals.

Allow harmful mobs to exist (I think this would be fun, maybe even have an arena to fight them)

Allow Inventory kits

Modmode only for mod powers.  Allows you to test things and prevents accidental tping to someone who doesn't want you to tp to them.

The new rulebook

Enable brew stands to work

Command Blocks work with a mod approval?  ----I know this was discussed, not sure where it is now

 

RESET DATE

When the map is prepared and the tech changes can be made.

 

 

I think the next steps are to start hosting and working on the new map to prepare for a mid-early September reset.

[jchance]

For the other dimensions, I had the idea to use the End as a "redstone area" with a decent sized plot grid laid out for people to build their random redstone devices in.   My reasoning is this:

 

1.  Random redstone things are kinda ugly to have scattered around

2.  We can do /warp redstone and move random redstone builds there

3.  Redstone lovers can all go there and look at each others stuff

4.  Random S/P players who come to C to mockup their contraptions can go there to build in a pre-cleared and plotted area.

 

I don't really like the idea of moving contest winners and moved builds to the end- it seems kinda rude to shuffle them away.   However, having a dedicated redstone area where people who love redstone can build their things, free of clearing land and surrounded by other cool redstone contraptions seems like a good use for the alternate dimension.

 

I figure we could lay out an initial grid of 30x30 plots, and as it fills up just stack another grid above or below.

[jchance]

I logged on to dumbo's server tonight and checked the area around spawn out.     If we don't have to have the spawn at exactly 0,0, there are a couple great geographical features I think we can use.

 

To the east of spawn there is a large plains area with a small hill beside it:

 

 

I really like the idea of an "offset spawn city."

 

What if we put spawn on this hill, with a path leading down to the plain where spawn city opens out?

 

From the top of the hill, looking down on the open plain full of spawn city would be a great view for people first joining the server:

 

 

We would leave the sides and back open / free build with just the controlled plots of spawn city in the valley below.

 

I would propose that we modify the hill as little as possible, scraping the top 3 or 4 layers of blocks off the top, building a small spawn building, and leaving most of the trees except for a path down the little draw and across the valley to spawn city proper.

 

I'm kinda new here and I don't know what Lets and Marting already discussed, so let me know if this is crazy talk.

 

(Sorry about the giant screenshots- #retnaproblems )

[marting11]

Proposal

[jchance]

I vote we go ahead with that proposal, I like it a lot.

[LetsBFehr]

I really like it.  Will town hall be facing West or East?

[marting11]

I really like it.  Will town hall be facing West or East?

Could probably face East, but have 2 exits, one East and one West. Or it could just be completely symetrical.

[Mrloud15]

Closing and moving to the archives.