Unban Carver.

[Diznatch52]

Just to clarify something, as perhaps I'm misinformed, was or was LRO not forcefully demodded at the time of her leaving?

If she simply decided to remove herself, I don't see much of a problem with the situation. It's the same as with other mods who have returned. If it was the case that she was forcefully demodded, it seems trivial and unfair that she return and simply be reinstated, regardless of the few hoops she was forced to jump through.

[Cyotie911]

Just to clarify something, as perhaps I'm misinformed, was or was LRO not forcefully demodded at the time of her leaving?

If she simply decided to remove herself, I don't see much of a problem with the situation. It's the same as with other mods who have returned. If it was the case that she was forcefully demodded, it seems trivial and unfair that she return and simply be reinstated, regardless of the few hoops she was forced to jump through.

 

To clarify, She was not forcefully removed from staff. She left of her own accord.

[Diznatch52]

To clarify, She was not forcefully removed from staff. She left of her own accord.

 

So yeah, it seems like this was handled like any of the returning inactive staff members, which makes sense given past vs inactive can be a function merely of whether or not they tell anyone they're leaving.

[CARVERitUP]

So...I was just linked this post today, and I'm not going to say much, but I'd like to clarify a couple of things that have been said that I don't agree with here.

 

Carver is and has been associated with AVO for a long time.  Is an active member of their community and is a moderator of their forums http://www.teamavolition.com/user/12366-dr-carbernated-water/

 

Back when Team Avolition were griefing our servers, I was one of the moderators helping fight them off. I was demodded because I was a bit too connected to the drama, and I would continue to "feed the trolls" so to speak, because I couldn't shut my big mouth. About 4 months after they had called it quits on our server, I figured "hey, it's all in good fun, they got publicity, even WE got publicity, and it's just a block game" and decided it was maybe a good idea to see what the AVO guys were up to. I friended Storm_Surge on steam just to see if by some inkling he would accept. And he did. I talked to him for a couple of hours about what had happened between them and our servers, and we put it all behind us. I fail to see why this is bad. Holding a grudge is toxic, and it only took me a few minutes to realize that all their "trolling" and "fun" they had with our server had actually helped our server advance. We got free publicity, and there is NO ONE that can deny we had a massive influx of new users that came to stay on our servers simply because they found out about us from AVO videos. I even talk to Allnaturalx regularly (the person who basically founded nerd.nu) and he feels that way as well.

 

After getting to know the "team" over at AVO, I found out they are a group of guys that are EXACTLY LIKE some of the nerd.nu people I knew. And when I became a moderator on their forums, their site was transitioning into a simple gaming forum site. We don't allow talk of grief, DDoS, illegal action, or anything of the nature, and we actually BAN people who don't get that message. Those forums are a gaming community, so again I fail to see why you think it's a bad thing that I am a moderator on that website.

 

 

The point is that we have had no trouble from people over LRO from AVO she is not as active as Carver, she also hasn't done anywhere near as much damage to the community of this server as Carver, I don't see why LRO is being discussed that much I have never heard anything from AVO about her and she is generally an incredible help to our servers.

I personally believe that enough time has passed without having avo fanboys coming on spamming unban carver or griefing or ddosing due to his presence in avo to give him another chance, however as stated the head admins are discussing this but until he makes a new appeal there is not much they can do as unbanning when there is no open appeal at the time is against server policy.

 

In terms of the damage done to the server/community, any of the "unban carver" spam that happened was completely and entirely without my consent, and I was actually the person who tracked them down and told them to STOP doing what they were doing, because (obviously) it was only going to be damaging to a ban appeal I had submitted around the same time. It ended up being a main reason why my appeal was denied. And I noticed you brought up about the time when I made the video which unintentionally revealed the IP of Rainshadow's server, you may remember that I took the video down once I realized what had been done, to reupload it with the IP blacked out. I worked day after day after day to help clean up the server, and I was helped by Lord_Munkee, who some of you might remember. He and Rainshadow both forgave me for my mistake, and I still talk to them both frequently (even earlier today), as they are both my friends. I don't understand why the person who OWNED and OPERATED the server was able to grow from the experience and forgive, but now people who weren't even involved with that private server are now trying to use that as another reason against me. I don't see the right.

 

In terms of how LRO hasn't done any damage to the community, well, I disagree. While I still think of LRO as a friend, the moment she came to the server over 2 and a half years ago, she was talking to one of the staff members, and the first great friend I made on nerd.nu, CarnThorn1. He was the nicest guy I knew at the time, and I was very close to him. She began to "e-date" him, and that's fine. But when the two of them broke off, CarnThorn1 disappeared from the servers, and I haven't spoken to him in 2 years, because he disappeared from everything. I'm just putting that out there, because I still go on Steam every once in a while and look through my friends list just hoping to see if he'd at least been online in the last...week. He was a very good friend of mine.

 

I was with nerd.nu from the start, literally a short while after it had been started, and I was on those servers as a friend for the entirety of my stay. If I had wanted to "grief" the servers, I don't see why I didn't do it in the large amount of time I had before I was even banned. Obviously that was not my goal.

Edited December 26, 2013 by CARVERitUP

[barneygale]

To clarify, She was not forcefully removed from staff. She left of her own accord.

This is totally incorrect and I suggest you edit or remove your post.

Edit: to clarify, I am not taking either side on the questions "should LRO be a mod?" and "did her re-modding have sufficient oversight?". I just wanted to point out that she *was* forcibly removed simply for dating an avo member.

I would like to request that a staffer lists out all interactions between MCPublic and Avo since carver's last appeal.

Edited December 26, 2013 by barneygale

[SpiderMan]

If you're taking about LRO, she was not banned.

 

She was banned for it though, until someone else unbanned her a while later.

 

Also, it was none of anyone's business to meddle in her personal life. It was a very childish move by someone who is obviously not a child

Edited December 26, 2013 by gsand

[barneygale]

To my knowledge LRO was never banned. She was removed as moderator because of the feared damage it would do to MCPublic's reputation if players knew an MCPublic mod was dating an avo member. In actuality the admins (myself among them) greatly overestimated the threat of avo, who publicly stated they were done griefing/trolling MCPublic and wanted to make peace.

The fact that LRO was removed over such a ridiculous thing is a matter of deep personal regret to me - I supported her removal and spent a good week in Skype with her trying to talk her into a peaceful resignation.

That it happened shows just how crazy the mccarthyist attitude toward avo was at that time. Carver's ban was a product of the same atmosphere and die-hard "us vs them" attitude that got LRO demodded.

I wrote up a personal recollection of carver's ban and appeals for the previous thread, but it was locked before I posted. I sent a pastebin'd version to the head admins a couple of days ago. I am currently requesting permission to post it here. Here it is: https://gist.github.com/barneygale/954af825ba4731580a9b

 

EDIT: I would also like to say it's bloody fantastic that MCPublic is at a stage where we can have these kind of threads and discuss/debate these issues without them being locked down as "drama-stirring". These threads only seem like "drama" because they're so rare. Once we get used to solving problems by talking them out like rationale adults, rather than bitching behind peoples backs or mounting a unified PR message, we will be a much stronger and healthier community where people feel free to discuss the issues that are important to them, and feel empowered to pursue new/crazy ideas.

Edited December 26, 2013 by barneygale

[Suff3r]

I feel it is time to let bygons be bygons. Are we forgetting that on mumble carver never did anything wrong? He never actually greifed Nerd.nu and was actually a respectable mod. Carver has never directly driven people away, he has always been a good player and was a very good mod until a time when he got banned due to the fact that he never did any real damage.Carver was a good member of the community while he was allowed here and his ban was based off a pre-emptive strike rather than him actually doing anything

 

EDIT: Post edited because I can't remember everything that happened back then due to my bad memory

Edited December 27, 2013 by Suff3r

[buzzinbee]

This is directly for Carver, I apologise if what I wrote sounded like I was having a go at you, I was bringing in old forum threads which gave what I though the reason to your ban. It may be wrong as when this occurred I stayed out of it completely. To be honest I don't think LadyRavenOwl should be demodded, since she has come back she has been very helpful and an incredibly nice person to interact with. I also think that Carver has had a long enough time away to warrant at least a trial run on returning. I had not heard about you helping Rainshadow with the server which shows that it was a genuine mistake. This is a head admin discussion but I believe that giving you a trail run again on the servers would be a good idea, and yes the AVO attacks were incredibly useful in terms of advertisement. I think we should not take action against players to have a good reputation, if someone has something personal to them so long as they don't get it involved with the MCPublic servers, that is their choice and not for us to moderate. That is my opinion of course I was not involved with all circumstances so I cannot give the best answer out there.

[SpiderMan]

if someone has something personal to them so long as they don't get it involved with the MCPublic servers, that is their choice and not for us to moderate.

 

This x 1000. Nobody has any right to try to control other peoples lives over a video game rivalry.

Edited December 27, 2013 by gsand

[Suff3r]

This x 1000. Nobody has any right to try to control other peoples lives over a video game rivalry.

 

I think this somewhat applies to carver...

[barneygale]

I agree absolutely with what buzzinbee said. Carver has never participated in, nor organised, nor condoned any avo activity on MCPublic to my knowledge. While he was a moderator he actively fought against avo's raids on the servers. The rainshadow thing was a genuine mistake and Carver took every step possible to correct it. The original ban was a ridiculously bad decision from one of the most difficult periods in MCPublic's history.

 

I would advocate for a complete unban. Carver has kept his hands clean for 18 months (conservative estimate) despite the original ban being highly controversial and outright wrong in many peoples books. Adding another month as a "trial period" will achieve nothing given the trial Carver has faced already.

[SpiderMan]

I agree absolutely with what buzzinbee said. Carver has never participated in, nor organised, nor condoned any avo activity on MCPublic to my knowledge. While he was a moderator he actively fought against avo's raids on the servers. The rainshadow thing was a genuine mistake and Carver took every step possible to correct it. The original ban was a ridiculously bad decision from one of the most difficult periods in MCPublic's history.

 

I would advocate for a complete unban. Carver has kept his hands clean for 18 months (conservative estimate) despite the original ban being highly controversial and outright wrong in many peoples books. Adding another month as a "trial period" will achieve nothing given the trial Carver has faced already.

 

Most people see it as an emotion based ban.

 

or be part of the broadly defined "don't be a dick" rule.

Edited December 27, 2013 by gsand

[barneygale]

I think there were more factors at work than that. It was a complicated situation, where:

 

1. The head admins' view of avo lagged behind that of the general playerbase

2. Both sides became steadily more entrenched in their views, and more convinced that the other side wouldn't give any ground

3. The "inner circle" became a much more exclusive clique of good friends, rather than disparate colleagues

4. "Don't betray your weaknesses or mistakes" became the Prime Directive - any question over whether to unban included giving a great deal of consideration to the political impact of a U-turn

5. Trusting our friends to be right, and assuming they are until convincingly proven otherwise, meant maintaining carvers ban had *at least* weak support from people who otherwise didn't care.

 

In my opinion, two important qualities of MCPublic leadership are "good" and "open", with either being sufficient for quality leadership, "good" being preferable to "open", and having both being a bonus. MCPublic certainly started out with both, but under Skuld, Pilot and Lude it drifted towards merely "good". Carver's ban was a notable exception to this period. Under JohnAdams/jcll, in my personal opinion (and through neither ill intentions, nor lack of hard graft from JA), the leadership was neither good nor open. Beginning with Barlimore, and now particularly with thrawn21, Denevien and Draykhar, we're making good headway in both departments. I can see things getting better - community suggestions are being listened to, tech things are progressing and seem well-organised, admins are dealing with difficult situations in a timely and well-considered fashion, etc. I think an important part of this would be righting the wrong of Carver's ban, but it should be done with understanding and respect for the complex situation that it was borne from. To say it's just an "emotion based" ban won't convince those who back the ban for logical reasons, and it certainly won't serve as a warning for future admins of the kind of mistakes that can arise when the factors enumerated above come about.

Edited December 27, 2013 by barneygale

[CARVERitUP]

This is directly for Carver, I apologise if what I wrote sounded like I was having a go at you, I was bringing in old forum threads which gave what I though the reason to your ban.

 

No problem! I was just making sure that it wasn't misleading at all

[Warchamp7]

From Carver's Appeal:  "While reading the thread I found out some interesting things. I was unaware that LadyRavenOwl, someone who actually was dating an AVO member and actually visited him in real life, is now back as a moderator on nerd.nu, for reasons I do not know."

Large difference between the real life activities of an individual, which have little to no affect on nerd, to the online activities of an individual, which in this case, is very directly related to it.

I was already one of the least active 'griefers' with aVo at the time, and stopped pretty much entirely when I started dating Raven. She was never really around the rest of the team nor the forums for a long time, and after that, was only an occasional poster on the forums.

You on the other hand, were very often in the company of the others, and on more than one occasion actually involved in griefing attacks on servers, and more or less being a very active member of the group, and eventually became a moderator on our forums.

Quit being a tool and comparing apples to oranges. If you wanna get unbanned, go for it, but don't go trying to pull cards like that.

[CARVERitUP]

Large difference between the real life activities of an individual, which have little to no affect on nerd, to the online activities of an individual, which in this case, is very directly related to it.

I was already one of the least active 'griefers' with aVo at the time, and stopped pretty much entirely when I started dating Raven. She was never really around the rest of the team nor the forums for a long time, and after that, was only an occasional poster on the forums.

You on the other hand, were very often in the company of the others, and on more than one occasion actually involved in griefing attacks on servers, and more or less being a very active member of the group, and eventually became a moderator on our forums.

Quit being a tool and comparing apples to oranges. If you wanna get unbanned, go for it, but don't go trying to pull cards like that.

Awkward, isn't it, that even Team Avolition has its share of pricks who like to get involved in things that they don't have a reason to besides being a dick. Who'd have thought, guys?

You obviously failed to see that the apples to oranges comparison was not made by me, but by nerd.nu staff members. They're the ones who referred to my ban as simply "association with avo". Is that not applicable to LRO? Both of us fall under the "association with avo" category.

Edited December 27, 2013 by CARVERitUP

[Warchamp7]

Awkward, isn't it, that even Team Avolition has its share of pricks who like to get involved in things that they don't have a reason to besides being a dick. Who'd have thought, guys?

You obviously failed to see that the apples to oranges comparison was not made by me, but by nerd.nu staff members. They're the ones who referred to my ban as simply "association with avo". Is that not applicable to LRO? Both of us fall under the "association with avo" category.

To be honest at this point you're more of a member of aVo than I am. I talk to Storm once a month at best and Krysk maybe slightly more than that, and I almost never visit the forums and don't even have the Ventrilo information since I reformatted three months ago.

 Is that not applicable to LRO?

If you'd read any of my post, that's exactly the point I was making.

Raven's association was with me, personally, and she was never connected in any way to anything aVo related despite our relationship. You were, and arguably still are.

[CARVERitUP]

 

To be honest at this point you're more of a member of aVo than I am. I talk to Storm once a month at best and Krysk maybe slightly more than that, and I almost never visit the forums and don't even have the Ventrilo information since I reformatted three months ago.

 

 

If you'd read any of my post, that's exactly the point I was making.

Raven's association was with me, personally, and she was never connected in any way to anything aVo related despite our relationship. You were, and arguably still are.

 

 

You fail to see how AVO isn't a griefing forum but rather a simple gaming forum at this time. Interesting, considering you designed the website...

 

And you're also ignoring the discussion that an affiliation with a group that has been away from the nerd servers for 2 years shouldn't bee grounds for a ban in the first place, so why would it matter if you think I'm "more of an AVO member" than you?

Edited December 27, 2013 by CARVERitUP

[Warchamp7]

You fail to see how AVO isn't a griefing forum but rather a simple gaming forum at this time.

My argument is regarding originally, the period of 'association' in question. Not 'at this time'

Edited December 27, 2013 by Warchamp7

[CARVERitUP]

My argument is regarding originally, the period of 'association' in question. Not 'at this time'

 

Back then as well, you don't think it was a gaming forum?

[ROCKONN]

The lot of you seem to miss the fact that while some people participated in certain actions with certain parties, others merely associated with them. While I can't speak for all, I'm sure that the majority of the other staff members can see that there are differences between cases such as LRO's & Carver, and as such are being/have been treated as such.

 

Actions speak just as loudly, if not more than, words.

 

There may have been some kind of hysteria over AVO in the past at Nerd, but such mistakes caused by that are dealt with as they come up, with everything that's happened since that time taken into account.

 

And Carver, never spoken with you before, or had the opportunity to, but you must admit that at their peak & even now, the name of AVO didn't/doesn't spring to mind as a gaming community, but rather as a well known group of hackers/modders/however you'd like to put it, to those outside of their own community.

[Suff3r]

If we are passing judgement simply based on a bad reputation then why am I here? I recorded the first ever ban on the new nerd site (now nerd.nu/archive), i was subsequently banned 2-3 more times and was banned once before this I think my ban total was 5-6 but I proved that I wanted to come back and be part of the community and it was agreed that i was relatively harmless to nerd and was given a chance. It's been 2.5 years since I was last banned, people can change, what happened to servers I once knew where you're external rep didn't matter but your intent when you were playing on the server? I had this conversation with cmdrtebok a long while back it basically went "If you want to greif on other servers then fine, but when you come on nerd you follow the rules" now this is slightly skewed because I don't have any other bans since nerd.nu 2.5 years ago but I think what was said then can be applied now to this particular case. I propose that we at least give Carver a chance to come back and show he is willing to be a positive part of the community, if he does not prove he can be part of the nerd.nu community then i am all for banning him again but at least give him a chance.

 

EDIT 1: also when I hear LRO was dating an aVo member I automatically assume that she did something bad, she is also active on the forums however after examination we realise that it is a harmless association that

in no way affects the day to day operation of the server I would ask the head admins to actually examine what carver did to nerd.nu and then come up with an answer as to whether he should be banned

Edited December 27, 2013 by Suff3r

[EeHee2000]

Large difference between the real life activities of an individual, which have little to no affect on nerd, to the online activities of an individual, which in this case, is very directly related to it.

I was already one of the least active 'griefers' with aVo at the time, and stopped pretty much entirely when I started dating Raven. She was never really around the rest of the team nor the forums for a long time, and after that, was only an occasional poster on the forums.

You on the other hand, were very often in the company of the others, and on more than one occasion actually involved in griefing attacks on servers, and more or less being a very active member of the group, and eventually became a moderator on our forums.

Quit being a tool and comparing apples to oranges. If you wanna get unbanned, go for it, but don't go trying to pull cards like that.

 

 

 

To be honest at this point you're more of a member of aVo than I am. I talk to Storm once a month at best and Krysk maybe slightly more than that, and I almost never visit the forums and don't even have the Ventrilo information since I reformatted three months ago.

 

 

If you'd read any of my post, that's exactly the point I was making.

Raven's association was with me, personally, and she was never connected in any way to anything aVo related despite our relationship. You were, and arguably still are.

 

 

 

My argument is regarding originally, the period of 'association' in question. Not 'at this time'

 

 

All you've written on this thread has been in contribution toward Carveritup staying listed as a banned member, however as Carver implied here:

 

why would it matter if you think I'm "more of an AVO member" than you?

 

it really shouldn't matter all that much to you. Your past with aVo was a strong one, as well as Carver's. There's no denying that, whether it was history made in the gaming forum phase of aVo or the griefing phase. Nerd.nu has very strong dislike to aVo either way, a lot of which is rather exaggerated and unrightly in place. We're working to decide whether a past aVo member should be unbanned or not, and comparing yourself to Carver won't help much because your histories there differentiate so much, and of course the affiliation(s) with LRO tend to tangle things up somewhere down the line. Of course, if you're willing to help us decide on Carver's unban, by all means please do. But at the moment, you're arguing over pasts at aVo, and not with the intention of supporting the decision. 

Edited December 27, 2013 by EeHee2000

[barneygale]

The lot of you seem to miss the fact that while some people participated in certain actions with certain parties, others merely associated with them.

While carver helped avo in general, he never helped them grief/hack/troll MCPublic. Ever.

While I can't speak for all, I'm sure that the majority of the other staff members can see that there are differences between cases such as LRO's & Carver, and as such are being/have been treated as such.

Considering a head admin stated incorrectly that LRO wasn't forced out, I think the staff are still at a "fact finding" stage.

 

Actions speak just as loudly, if not more than, words.

Specifics plz. What rules has carver broken since he was banned? What involvement has avo had with MCPublic in the past 2 years?