On Survival Administration

[Aeoxic]

As the original thread was closed, I spoke with the administrator who closed it (Cyotie911) and it was agreed that a new topic could be formed as long as the topic is adhered to.
 

IRC conversation I had with Cyotie911 for posterity:

<Cyotie911bot> If you have questions that you would like answered, please just directly message an S admin or any head directly
<Aeoxic> Cyotie911bot: That is not how it works, and that's never how it's worked.
<Aeoxic> Why is that the ruling now?
<Aeoxic> Normally you're all for having things open and transparent.
<Aeoxic> Why all of a sudden is this not allowed.
<Aypop> Cyotie911bot, is a mumble channel alright with you?
<Aeoxic> Trigger words 'drama' and 'witch-hunting' are nonrelevant. Please use other terms.
<Aypop> I remember a while back, Mrloud15 had a public mumble channel setup to address grievances.
<Bmx> Cyotie911bot: I made the thread to express the issues I feel are going on and to speak about them. You are now oppressing said ideals and trying to "shut us up". I don't appreciate the fact that we have tried our best to make progress however you still don't see it that way.
<Cyotie911bot> Bmx, I didn't close the topic because anyone was being targeted.  I closed this thread because the comments in the thread were starting to become... well "quit touchin the poop crock, he looks for trouble a lot"
<Aeoxic> Cyotie911bot: Then I will start a new topic, is that okay?
<Aeoxic> Your justification is that it deviated from the OP, which I agree with.
<Four_Down> If you felt that comment wasn't appropriate, why didn't you remove it?
<roastnewt> there was a single off topic comment in a huge thread of productive stuff
<Aeoxic> I would like my questions, which are the questions of apparently at least fifteen other people, answered.
<Aeoxic> It's not hard. I'm not asking for a poem.
<Cyotie911bot> and the original reason for the thread.  "why was the newest S admin picked" was answered in a different thread days ago.
<Four_Down> Why write off a whole thread with loads of productive content because you felt one comment over stepped the mark
<Aeoxic> Cyotie911bot: I don't think you read my post.
<Aeoxic> Primarily because I address exactly that.
<Bmx> Cyotie911bot: So you had to lock the thread? You couldn't just hide the post and ask the person to calm down and to write a reply that was better suited?
<Cyotie911bot> I haven't had time to respond.
<Cyotie911bot> I'm multitasking
<Four_Down> Correct, and since then a whole range of new, productive comments have been posted
<Aeoxic> Cyotie911bot: I understand that, because I am too. Can I repost the thread with my post as an OP and request that it sticks to *that* topic?
<Cyotie911bot> I am not opposed to starting a new thread with the new questions and topics moved over.
<Four_Down> Also, it's interesting you now say the reason was because the comments were going off topic, yet in the post, you just say "it's gone on too long"
<Aeoxic> Okay.
<Aeoxic> Doing it now.
<Aeoxic> Cyotie911bot: Thank you.

I'll start by pointing out that I'm very well aware of my ranking on the survival usage board. At the time of posting I'm 305th with just shy of two hours of total play time this revision. Several revisions ago, however, I was regularly in the top 5 - 15 players in terms of play time.

When a group of people collectively states that their opinion of x is y, generally you're not going to change that. Of course there are some glaring examples of the contrary such as the beginnings of the universe / humankind or the correct way to compose a cup of tea, however this doesn't apply when the main collective playerbase of survival is saying that they're not getting heard enough. Anecdotal evidence (and that's all these threads are - anecdotal) does not contribute to a defence.

At the risk of beating the skeleton of the dead horse into a fine dust, from what I've gathered passively the primary criticisms are the following:

1. The current survival server admins are not survival server core players

2. The current survival server admins don't listen to anybody

3. Nothing is ever going anywhere.

1. The current survival server admins are not survival server core players
Sorry admins, but this is indisputable. The only reason I can't say "none of the staff are even in the top 20" is because Mumberthrax just shaves in at number 17. If the average number of hours for the three longer-term S admins was a player, it'd be number 25 on the usage charts. If we include our newest admin (at a total of zero hours), it clocks in at around number 34. The only person who even comes close to being a survival core player is redwall_hp, and it took about three revisions until he was a household name as a moderator because even his time on the servers was sparse.

Between the four combined, the survival administrators have 139 hours of played time this revision on the survival server. Comparatively, there's a total of 733 hours of played time on the PvE server. This thread contains several justifications for it. Of them, Beastbruiser's stood out to me most. The long and short of it is that it's not an enjoyable experience to play on S. That's understandable, because I and many other current S players agree with that. From an observational point of view, my problem is with the played hours disparity. Mumberthrax has 59 hours on S, and 192 on P. You accepted the position of server admin in order to perform various duties largely in the vein of improving and shaping the future of the survival server. What makes PvE such an enjoyable experience by comparison that you would dedicate between three and four times your time to it, than to molding the server you're responsible for into something you want to play? Given those reasons, why isn't there any clear and cut progress towards fixing those reasons? Those are your goalposts.

2. The current survival server admins don't listen to anybody
I'd submit that this is half-true, and while one half of it belongs within point three, the other half is a problem of communication. We have several communication avenues open to us for NerdNu. We have the forums, the subreddit, the IRC, and in-game.

The first two have the problem of being poster-boards. Anyone can submit a comment to it and, frankly, everyone does. A lot of criticism threads turn into heresay and opinion slinging. Opinions are like nipples, everybody has one. Some have solid points, others are obscured by layers, and some are displayed at every opportunity regardless of whether the audience has stated "I am interested in your nipples" or not. Cats have between 8 and twelve. In-game the admins just want to either do their job or play the game. In both circumstances there's little desire for a chat about the servers' future, and this is understandable. IRC has a myriad of issues ranging from the fact that one-on-one private conversations can be later misconstrued, to the fact that some people simply don't log IRC.

One communication method I've left off there is Mumble, and for good reason. Mumble (or VoIP in general) is an incredible device for conversing, not just communicating. The nigh-annual Mumble meetings that are held have, given that the serfs non-staff have been allowed to input into conversation, always been a net positive. Casual conversation regarding current thoughts on the server at present and in the future would be highly valuable. This was a common experience with the server admins up until those after draykhar and Tharine who, whilst server staff, still maintained a highly active Mumble presence and were able to consistently communicate with players both in the context of playing the game and playing the politics. Currently, I'm only aware of redwall_hp and Beastbruiser ever being on Mumble when they're playing Trouble in Terrorist Town. Mumberthrax doesn't like his headset, to which I venture should be remedied by simply buying a new one or, if $50 is a bit much to drop right now, start a S-centric fundraiser for one. I'm sure people would contribute if they believe it'll increase server admin Mumble activity.

3. Nothing is ever going anywhere.
Herein is the latter half of point two. The server admins do sometimes listen, but only when they're within reasonable distance of a well-marked "to-do" pile. Then they can take the suggestion and make a large song and dance about putting it on the pile. No mention is ever made of the ever-growing size of the pile or the fact that the last time something was removed from it, CraftBukkit wasn't in violation of someone's copyright. The primary cause of these seems to have one commonality: Effort. The amount of effort required to remedy these things is often too high to bother. As an ex-developer, I'm very well aware of the fact that larger-scale plugins and sweeping configuration changes can't be created and tested overnight, however many hands make light work. There are multiple capable Java developers within the survival community that can assist. All they need is a green light from an admin saying "I'm willing to try this". For a lot of things, they don't even ever get that.

I'm of the opinion that what needs to happen is not simply a cool new admin from what I can only assume the admin team sarcastically refer to as "da boiz" while rolling their eyes. I believe that while the current administrative team doesn't actively play on S, this is something that should change in order to bring them more in tune with the playerbase at its rawest. What needs to happen is a culture shift back towards the idea of actively making a difference, not just "keeping things running". Vanilla Minecraft is now boring. Factions and pay-to-win servers are thriving. Even HardcoreSMP is magnitudes more active around the clock than S is, and players get banned when they die there.

On the other hand, what needs to happen for any of the above to even hit the runway, let alone fly, is ideas to work with. These come largely in the form of really sparsely thought out reddit posts with "thoughts?" in the footer. This isn't a productive or useful way to create a think tank. Approximately a year and a half ago a group of players created a very large document listing, in great detail, their thoughts on the current issues and their potential solutions. About half of those suggestions have been implemented permanently, or implemented, later decided against, and subsequently removed. Sure, it's a lot of work, but it's a labour of love, right? There's no requirement for a symphony accompanying each individual idea, but detailing and updating it properly goes a long way. It helps everybody see your perspective from the get-go. Another form of idea generation is simply through passively observing new players. Players will often join and ask if feature x is available on this server. Take these into account.
 
Discussion Points
Please keep this thread on topic. The last one was closed because it ended up deviating slightly. Our discussion points are the three key points listed earlier. The major questions that need to be answered (by the S administrative base as a whole) are:

1. Why are the current survival administrators not survival core players by being picked from the survival core playerbase, or by playing largely on S?
2. Why are the clear avenues for improved communication not taken after being told time and again that the level of communication is insufficient?
3. Why is survival stuck in a cycle of taking ideas, barely implementing them, then going back to the old (nonworking) formula? What can be done to improve this from the perspective of the players, and the perspective of the administrators?

 

Thanks to Bmx, gsand, MonroeZabaleta, MrGauthier34, roastnewt, TornadoHorse, and the few others who proofread, edited, and added to this post.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Aeoxic

[BeastBruiser]

So now i'm not a "survival core player." good to know i guess. 

 

I started on S, and other than one rev where i built an Iron farm on P (while simultaneously playing and building on S during the revs that overlapped that one PvE rev) I have pretty much played exclusively on S. I have frequently been in the top 5 on usage for S and have had several revs where i had over 1000 hours logged. I have built quite a few huge builds single handedly including a full size arena that was used for the subsequent S rev. Many of my builds have been near spawn forcing me to either use diplomacy or pvp to defend myself. I have built many xp, mob, and iron grinders, all public, to try and encourage pvp. I've helped out new players with advice and gear to get them started. I even built a pvp kitting station that would give out food, weapons, pearls, and arrows to encourage pvp and spent many hours gathering resources to keep it stocked.  I've played on S for every revision since i bought minecraft and joined during rev 15.(incidentally I found Nerd.nu from the link on /r/minecraft and S was the first server I ever played on)

 

Since becoming Admin, I admit my usage stats have dropped, Do you know why? Yes, partially because I have had IRL stuff come up(such as work which has me getting up at 4:15 every morning and not getting home until after 6:15 at night) but also because I spend a large amount of time performing admin duties that take away from my play time. If I look at my personal statistics for this rev in minecraft, I have been logged onto the server enough to be in the top 20 easily, but as the usage stats don't log AFK time, it doesn''t show the hours spent combing logs and querying logblock for modreqs and moderating duties. None of this shows the amount of time spent doing admin duties out of game.

 

What does a player have to do to be considered a "survival server core player?"

[Aeoxic]

 

So now i'm not a "survival core player." good to know i guess. 

 

I started on S, and other than one rev where i built an Iron farm on P (while simultaneously playing and building on S during the revs that overlapped that one PvE rev) I have pretty much played exclusively on S. I have frequently been in the top 5 on usage for S and have had several revs where i had over 1000 hours logged. I have built quite a few huge builds single handedly including a full size arena that was used for the subsequent S rev. Many of my builds have been near spawn forcing me to either use diplomacy or pvp to defend myself. I have built many xp, mob, and iron grinders, all public, to try and encourage pvp. I've helped out new players with advice and gear to get them started. I even built a pvp kitting station that would give out food, weapons, pearls, and arrows to encourage pvp and spent many hours gathering resources to keep it stocked.  I've played on S for every revision since i bought minecraft and joined during rev 15.(incidentally I found Nerd.nu from the link on /r/minecraft and S was the first server I ever played on)

 

Since becoming Admin, I admit my usage stats have dropped, Do you know why? Yes, partially because I have had IRL stuff come up(such as work which has me getting up at 4:15 every morning and not getting home until after 6:15 at night) but also because I spend a large amount of time performing admin duties that take away from my play time. If I look at my personal statistics for this rev in minecraft, I have been logged onto the server enough to be in the top 20 easily, but as the usage stats don't log AFK time, it doesn''t show the hours spent combing logs and querying logblock for modreqs and moderating duties. None of this shows the amount of time spent doing admin duties out of game.

 

What does a player have to do to be considered a "survival server core player?"

 

 

At the risk of this post being an opinion piece, I submit that the following would make you a 'non-core' player. Note that by these standards I'm most certainly not a core survival player either.

 

1. Consistent playtime on the server. You state your job is keeping you from doing so and, while I feel like you mentioning your oh-so-long working hours sound like "I'm better than you because I work longer hours than you", it's unfortunately pretty much the major telling point. You don't have time to play - you're not a core player.

 

2. Lack of communication / involvement with the core player base. Like it or not, there is an existing core player base and, again like it or not (and I'd venture that you're definitely in the 'not' camp), it contains most of the aforementioned "boiz" from the OP. That circle has grown and shrunk over time, and it's hardly non-inclusive. Those players are online every day each talking and playing on the servers, as well as communicating in Mumble. I played when you were at the "peak" of your involvement as a player with the server and I'm fairly sure I never even saw you in chat. Silently building something and then logging off does not a core involved player make.

 

From your end it doesn't sound like something you can change. It's difficult to snip your work hours if your job requires you to work those hours, making it difficult to find the time to play on the server. Likewise, you mentioned that you simply don't enjoy playing on the server - how can you be considered a core player if you don't enjoy doing it? That makes sense for some things, but not for a video game community.

 

Overall, realistically, the fact you're not a core S player is trivial if the other two points are resolved. It is, however, a major telling point when it seems that what originally started out as one offside server administrator alongside draykhar and Tharine (Mrloud15 - an addition I and many others very vocally opposed), has metastasised across the entire administration team until nobody actually plays on survival, they just "administrate" it and "think about" it. The lack of being a core player is largely tied into point two - you need to have your communication channels open.

[d3north]

 I'm sure people would contribute if they believe it'll increase server admin Mumble activity.

 

I will contribute towards getting server staff headsets, as long as a few guidelines are put in place:

 

  1: Staff be on mumble.nerd.nu at least 8 hours a week in reachable channels.

   1a: Being in suppressed channels or being muted and deafened does not count towards this goal.

   1b: Active hours should preferably match to peak active hours.

  

  2: Microphones be used as much as possible.

   2a: Text chat should be kept to as little as possible, as not to disrupt flow of conversation with late responses.

 

I'm serious about this. If giving a bit of money gets people talking and discussing things, then I am all for it.

[kittypuppet]

I will contribute towards getting server staff headsets, as long as a few guidelines are put in place:

 

  1: Staff be on mumble.nerd.nu at least 8 hours a week in reachable channels.

   1a: Being in suppressed channels or being muted and deafened does not count towards this goal.

   1b: Active hours should preferably match to peak active hours.

  

  2: Microphones be used as much as possible.

   2a: Text chat should be kept to as little as possible, as not to disrupt flow of conversation with late responses.

 

I'm serious about this. If giving a bit of money gets people talking and discussing things, then I am all for it.

 

If I'm not mistaken, it used to be like this. 

[Cyotie911]

(also side question, remove if desired)

How does telling someone not to feed a troll derail a thread?

I am going to post a response to this question here rather than create a new thread for what should be a one answer response.  I will consider this subject dead after answering this question and ask that if you have further questions regarding this, then please message me directly.

 

The reason that "telling someone not to feed a troll" is considered derailing a thread, is for the same reason that "the troll post" derails a thread.  By telling someone that, it normally induces the troll to defend whatever he originally said and therefore will start an argument that will veer the topic of a thread off track.  Instead, when you see a troll post, do a couple of things. Instead of replying to it and feeding a fire that doesn't need to spread for the sake of the community.

#1. Report it with the report option on the forum.  I am going to start actively patrolling the forums to keep the drama here at a minimum (along with on the servers). So the removal of troll posts will be dealt with.  

#2. Report it to someone Via a private message on IRC. 

[Cyotie911]

I will contribute towards getting server staff headsets, as long as a few guidelines are put in place:

 

  1: Staff be on mumble.nerd.nu at least 8 hours a week in reachable channels.

   1a: Being in suppressed channels or being muted and deafened does not count towards this goal.

   1b: Active hours should preferably match to peak active hours.

  

  2: Microphones be used as much as possible.

   2a: Text chat should be kept to as little as possible, as not to disrupt flow of conversation with late responses.

 

I'm serious about this. If giving a bit of money gets people talking and discussing things, then I am all for it.

 

I'm not a Survival Server Admin, however I just wanted to comment a bit here.  The Survival Admins are still welcome to post of course.

 

Personal answers to your questions:

  1: Staff be on mumble.nerd.nu at least 8 hours a week in reachable channels.

   1a: Being in suppressed channels or being muted and deafened does not count towards this goal.

   1b: Active hours should preferably match to peak active hours.

 

I am never going to require Server admins to have to participate on Mumble, however, I do encourage it.  This will never be a requirement to become a server admin though. 

Me personally, I am at work for 12 hours a day every day (as I am at this time) however, My job allows me to be able to be on IRC, Actively be around the forums, and jump in game when needed.  What I can't do, however, is make noise and be in mumble.  I don't believe that not being able to jump on Mumble is honestly that big of a hindrance to being able to work my head admin duties.  Also, although it is nice to have an admin around all the time, it is not necessary.  The majority of the issues that require a staff person on Survival can be taken care of by a Moderator.  Most of the time when someone needs something they will more than likely run /list and if an Admin is on, will try to contact them first rather than a moderator.  While this is nice to be able to do, it's also taking an admin away from his/her work (i.e. doing admin request that are only able to be done by an admin).

 

Please note, that the above is just my personal experience and may differ from a response from an S admin.  I just wanted to give you guys some feedback while you wait a response from an S admin.

[Aeoxic]

I don't believe that not being able to jump on Mumble is honestly that big of a hindrance to being able to work my head admin duties.

 

As mentioned in the OP, I personally believe that you would be more in touch with the playerbase if you could make time to pass through Mumble a few times a week and chat with the players. We may be many levels of bureaucracy below, but that's where the raw, unfiltered thoughts and opinions happen.

 

While this is nice to be able to do, it's also taking an admin away from his/her work (i.e. doing admin request that are only able to be done by an admin).

 

While unrelated to the OP it is part of your post, so I will mention that I also personally believe that more "admin only" work could actually be done by the moderators.

[TornadoHorse]

After reading your post, beast, it was unfair to label you as not a survival player. I think the intention was to point out that all of the sadmins are exactly the same type of player; little to no pvp, prefer to build staying away from the pvp (except from the notable examples you gave), fairly quiet players, rarely coming into mumble or speaking with the players as players, only if necessary is there a post about S. It's not meant to be an insult, it's just how many S players see the admins so all you tend to get labelled with things like "non-s players", especially considering playtime on all servers.

 

Moving on from that, I think the main point of the post has been completely missed:

 

3. Nothing is ever going anywhere.

 

Please consider the whole post, don't just take it as a personal attack, it wasn't intended or written like that. We need to take action immediately so we can solve the above problems.

[djt832]

I will contribute towards getting server staff headsets, as long as a few guidelines are put in place:

 

  1: Staff be on mumble.nerd.nu at least 8 hours a week in reachable channels.

   1a: Being in suppressed channels or being muted and deafened does not count towards this goal.

   1b: Active hours should preferably match to peak active hours.

  

  2: Microphones be used as much as possible.

   2a: Text chat should be kept to as little as possible, as not to disrupt flow of conversation with late responses.

 

I'm serious about this. If giving a bit of money gets people talking and discussing things, then I am all for it.

 

I'm not sure you can expect people with jobs and other irl responsibilities to be on mumble 8 hours a day. I couldn't even do that when I was in school. 

 

EDIT: Apparently I need to go back to school and learn how to read, 8 hours a week or close to it seems feasible. I cant say much though, as I personally hardly ever use mumble. 

[Guest]

I'm not sure you can expect people with jobs and other irl responsibilities to be on mumble 8 hours a day. I couldn't even do that when I was in school.

D3's original post said eight hours a week, not everyday (heh that would be a really long time to dedicate to mumble).

I think having a way to have at least one sadmin on every day or so (providing that real life responsibilities don't get in the way) is a reasonable thing to hope for, especially since threads like this could be done quicker and more casually on mumble.

Just my two cents.

Edited December 22, 2014 by AvadaKedavra

[Four_Down]

I will contribute towards getting server staff headsets, as long as a few guidelines are put in place:

 

  1: Staff be on mumble.nerd.nu at least 8 hours a week in reachable channels.

   1a: Being in suppressed channels or being muted and deafened does not count towards this goal.

   1b: Active hours should preferably match to peak active hours.

  

  2: Microphones be used as much as possible.

   2a: Text chat should be kept to as little as possible, as not to disrupt flow of conversation with late responses.

 

I'm serious about this. If giving a bit of money gets people talking and discussing things, then I am all for it.

I'm unsure of as to why this post by D3 has so many responses..

 

d3north is offering to spend his own money on buying Staff Members audio equipment, and as a result he has some rules that he's set, so he feels his purchase is justified.

 

If you can't match the commitments, you don't get d3norths money spent on you. No idea why there were so many responses to this.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Four_Down

[iamdarb]

I play a lot, but don't pvp that much(working on changing that) but I'm currently 6 in time played. I feel like the current "core" pvpers are too immature to be leaders of the community. Until they "grow up" I don't feel any of them are ready for that kind of responsibility. So in theory it should be someone who plays often, but in practice it would probably turn out pretty badly.

[dizney07]

I play a lot, but don't pvp that much(working on changing that) but I'm currently 6 in time played. I feel like the current "core" pvpers are too immature to be leaders of the community. Until they "grow up" I don't feel any of them are ready for that kind of responsibility. So in theory it should be someone who plays often, but in practice it would probably turn out pretty badly.

 

Most of the players that were considered for admin (as I think is what you're addressing) tend to be immature to each other because that's how we've been conditioned on survival. Almost 95% of what we say are joking around with each other. But if you directly talked to any of our staff in game, we should show signs of professionalism and maturity to answer any questions or help in ways we can. 

[Magnyus]

Most of the players that were considered for admin (as I think is what you're addressing) tend to be immature to each other because that's how we've been conditioned on survival. Almost 95% of what we say are joking around with each other. But if you directly talked to any of our staff in game, we should show signs of professionalism and maturity to answer any questions or help in ways we can. 

 

Players like us understand time and place, we're playing a game, so we tend to be silly and over the top, but outside of that or even in other games, we can easily turn off that switch and get serious about things. There's a reason those players are on staff to begin with, if they were truly immature they wouldn't be staff members.

[SpiderMan]

Most of the players that were considered for admin (as I think is what you're addressing) tend to be immature to each other because that's how we've been conditioned on survival. Almost 95% of what we say are joking around with each other. But if you directly talked to any of our staff in game, we should show signs of professionalism and maturity to answer any questions or help in ways we can. 

 

Also, considering the competitive environment, it's easy for people to hold long grudges that may negatively affect ones opinion of that person.

 

For instance, I was recently told that someone still holds a grudge for a thing I did at the very first ctf event. It was a few years ago. Someone is still mad at unce for stealing from chests that their friend was added to.

 

It's ridiculous, but human nature.

 

-gsand