On the subject of end grinders in PvE.

[tactical_spork]

I've recently learned that Vinhaven/Atlantis have their own, private, end grinder in this rev, which may make the public one work much more slowly. On one hand, the end is nobody's land and anybody can build on it, but on the other hand, it is a limited resource and having a private one for members seem contrary to the spirit of PvE, not to mention having two end grinders make both work less well. I was just wondering what other people thought of this, do you think it's fair/should be allowed?

Edited May 26, 2013 by tactical_spork

[Druchii89]

The more i think about this, the more i realise that i'm mad about this only because they're restricting an already limited resource.

 

Having 2 grinders setup and in use on the End will slow down boths spawnrate. This causes issues, as then each grinder is slower, leading to more wait time.

 

If we have more wait time, there are two things that could happen.

If you're a member of the general public... You wait in the queue longer.

If you're a member of the private grinder, you run to the other one and check the queue.

 

Basically, if one private grinder is created, we end up  with an unequal system when it comes to accessing a finite resource = Mobs.

 

Should we really be allowing private grinders at all? I'm not sure - The spawner blocks aren't limited in the same way as the End. 

Should we really be allowing private End Grinders? Nope.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/sf5d6dm.png

Edited May 26, 2013 by Druchii89

[erdt]

Okay, time to speak up. Hoping to shed some light on the whole situation. Let's start by listing people behind the second grinder. For science.

2013-05-24 09:45:18 Region: vinatlgrinder, type: cuboid, Priority: 0

2013-05-24 09:45:18 Owners: dokdor, princessugly, ravalevis, redigox, ultrahub

Now, no longer than a week ago, people started reporting end grinder issues. Due to a fact I was redesigning the grinding chamber back then, I've happened to be around and get a portion of backlash the situation has spawned.

2013-05-19 09:31:02 <SwitchViewz> erdtZAC whyd you break end grinder

2013-05-19 09:31:03 <SwitchViewz> D:

2013-05-19 09:31:03 <erdtZAC> End mainland residents, get to the dang portal! :P

2013-05-19 09:31:18 <CROCKODUCK> wut did you do erdt?

The grinder was, in fact, spawning NOTHING and that's where I went into detective mode. Noticed Redigox on the mainland and pointed it out in global chat.

2013-05-19 09:32:42 <Redigox> what about me?

2013-05-19 09:32:52 <erdtZAC> are you in the end?

2013-05-19 09:32:57 <Redigox> yar

2013-05-19 09:33:08 <erdtZAC> you're stealing the mob cap!

2013-05-19 09:33:16 <Redigox> where?

2013-05-19 09:33:30 <erdtZAC> ...in the end. Nothing spawns in the grinder

By that point, Redigox was perfectly aware of the second grinder (since he's the one who made it, of course). He chooses to pretend he doesn't know about it and act like a derp:

2013-05-19 09:33:37 <Redigox> ok?

2013-05-19 09:33:44 <SwitchViewz> Its not working for some reason

2013-05-19 09:33:57 <Redigox> im gunna go build in my fort now

And when he's done grinding, arrives at the main "Seneca" grinder to play dumb some more:

2013-05-19 10:23:52 <Redigox> i seriously do not see why you had to barge into my shit and go all light popo on my place

Few days later, a user that would like to remain anonymous has informed me of the other grinder and even gave me a nice tour. Mandatory imgur album.

Fast forward to present. The topic of multiple grinders arises in chat where another person and I point out there are, in fact, already two. Shitstorm ensues.

2013-05-26 11:45:22 <PvtSnowball971> yeah so stfu guys if you are not in vin

2013-05-26 11:45:38 <tactical_spork> and everybody wonders why people hate vinhaven =/

2013-05-26 11:45:43 <erdtZAC> yup

2013-05-26 11:45:49 <archelon2001> because they act like this is pvp

2013-05-26 11:45:53 <PvtSnowball971> this are land and we can make all this shit private if we want

(...)

2013-05-26 11:55:30 <PvtSnowball971> the funny part this all start because 1 dumb ass me went afk and another dumbass ZAC could not figur

Turns out Vinhaven is not as cool as it seems and there are some other grudges being held against it, which I don't really know of. Surprisingly (or not so), both situations involve that person.

2013-05-26 11:38:33 <erdtZAC> the private grinder is a direct violation of rule 1

2013-05-26 11:38:51 <Kirstae> What rule is that?

2013-05-26 11:38:52 <archelon2001> vinhaven in general... breaks rule 1 a lot

2013-05-26 11:38:56 <archelon2001> don't be a dick

2013-05-26 11:38:57 <erdtZAC> yup

2013-05-26 11:38:57 <tactical_spork> siiiigh i guess mattman should know this

2013-05-26 11:38:58 <The6ftPianist> Don't be a dick

2013-05-26 11:39:02 <tactical_spork> shit's gonna get down soon i feel

2013-05-26 11:39:02 <archelon2001> or build a dick

2013-05-26 11:39:04 <erdtZAC> mattman already knows

2013-05-26 11:39:14 <archelon2001> they also dug a hole right through the end island

2013-05-26 11:39:17 <The6ftPianist> It was mostly pugly, actually

2013-05-26 11:39:24 <tactical_spork> yeah vinhaven seems to be causing a lot of problems

2013-05-26 11:39:25 <The6ftPianist> Not vinnie

2013-05-26 11:39:33 <Omegaperfecta> Yeah. I fell in that hole

2013-05-26 11:39:34 <The6ftPianist> We just helped

(...)

2013-05-26 11:39:53 <Omegaperfecta> lost 38 dia and a really good set of armor

It's safe to assume people who've built the second grinder knew of the one-grinder agreement, otherwise they wouldn't make it hidden.

2013-05-24 10:11:07 [REDACTED -> Me] ALSO! When I went to modreq their grinder I messaged princessugly and said "guess you gotta

2013-05-24 10:11:29 [REDACTED -> Me] change that sign" referring to their 5 days gone unnoticed sign. He responded by saying both

2013-05-24 10:11:45 [REDACTED -> Me] "no hoes allowed in this grinder" and "don't tell mattman he'll flip."

My point: one grinder to rule them (endermen) all. Let's just have it as a rule. It's not "Seneca grinder" and you don't have to be a Senecan to get building permissions there (best example: me!), so please take that S mentality of "private grinders" back to S. This is P and people are expected to share things. Keep in mind "Atlantis and vinhaven residents only" signs don't really conform to that.

Who would've thought addition of hoppers could reveal so many things about people's personalities. >:P

Edited May 26, 2013 by Denevien
Removed personal attack

[Trooprm32]

2013-05-26 11:45:22 <PvtSnowball971> yeah so stfu guys if you are not in vin
2013-05-26 11:45:38 <tactical_spork> and everybody wonders why people hate vinhaven =/
2013-05-26 11:45:43 <erdtZAC> yup
2013-05-26 11:45:49 <archelon2001> because they act like this is pvp
2013-05-26 11:45:53 <PvtSnowball971> this are land and we can make all this shit private if we want
(...)
2013-05-26 11:55:30 <PvtSnowball971> the funny part this all start because 1 dumb ass me went afk and another dumbass ZAC could not figur

 

Pvt Snowball does NOT represent Vinhaven, and hes now off our perms and clan chat. Listening to him is a bad idea.

 

The Totemo griefing incedent has NOTHING to do with this, don't bring pointless shit up. We know Redigox is a little volitile, but don't place his reputation on the whole of Vinhaven.

 

The grinder does not break any rules..... and I actually have not noticed a slow down in either grinders since its construction.

 

And a mod, whom I hope it's not who I think it is, should not have revealed private information due to them being a mod, and fulfilling a modreq in the area.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Trooprm32

[Guest Former Staff]

And a mod, whom I hope it's not who I think it is, should not have revealed private information due to them being a mod, and fulfilling a modreq in the area.

 

Given the nature of this concern, I looked into this and found this trust was not breached.

[erdt]

The Totemo griefing incedent has NOTHING to do with this, don't bring pointless shit up.

I'm bringing "this shit" up to back my claim that people's attitude towards Vinhaven may be justified and is not empty words. I tend to do research before bringing "shit" up.

The grinder does not break any rules

Oh really?

The map should be considered open for exploration. Players are not allowed to completely block off large sections of the map. Access to land and buildings should not be "restricted". Anything can be explored by anyone. Rare exceptions include structures such as private animal farms.

Need more? Lemme quote myself.

It's safe to assume people who've built the second grinder knew of the one-grinder agreement, otherwise they wouldn't make it hidden.

And a respective rule that applies here:

Don't be a dick

*

And a mod, whom I hope it's not who I think it is, should not have revealed private information due to them being a mod, and fulfilling a modreq in the area

What makes you think it was a mod?

Pvt Snowball does NOT represent Vinhaven, and hes now off our perms and clan chat. Listening to him is a bad idea.

So lemme sum things up, according to Vinhaven's codex, giving the town negative publicity is awarded with exclusion from town and permission removal. That's okay. But he was a VH member and you fail to properly address and explain the basis of his actions. Matches the dick attitude I've heard of and experienced before. "Let's just trash the guy and pretend it didn't happen on our grounds" is not a solution. And don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to say VH is all evil things of the server combined. But there certainly is some coincidence between the previous griefing incident, the anti-P-spirit private grinder AND people telling me, lemme quote, "vinhaven in general... breaks rule 1 a lot".

Edit: explained the "OMG VH is evil (or not?)" part some more.

Edited May 26, 2013 by erdt

[ultrahub]

Hello everyone, I see this whole ordeal is causing a bit of a stir, enough so that I finally made a forum account I have so lazily been putting off.

 

First off, PvtSnowball and Redigox do not represent Vinhaven as a whole, and appropriate steps have been taken to deal with these two. It saddens me that Vinhaven's reputation can be so easily soured by two twats.

 

When Princessugly first approached me about this idea, I told him to talk to Redigox. I was busy with my own projects. Yes, I did supply the materials, but at the time I did not realize the scope of impact this would have. I am deeply sorry for all the trouble this may have caused you all. You can rest assured that in future revisions I, or Vinhaven for that matter, will not attempt something like this again.

 

So whether you accept my humble apology or not, I am still doing my best to keep Vinhaven a friendly place. If you wish to cast blame on anyone, blame me, not my town, or those who weren't even involved. Most of our town doesn’t even have access to it, and at least half the town is unaware of the grinder's existence.

 

So send me your hate mail, I won't mind.

 

So good day Sirs and Madams, and have a pleasant time on PvE.

[Trooprm32]

The map should be considered open for exploration. Players are not allowed to completely block off large sections of the map. Access to land and buildings should not be "restricted". Anything can be explored by anyone. Rare exceptions include structures such as private animal farms.

 

What about the other grinders that are blocked off to residents in the Overworld, they're no different. Besides, it's not a significant area, most people have homes bigger than this.

 

"ALSO! When I went to modreq their grinder" Generally states that it was someone who can do Modreq's.

 

And as I said, one person, in this case Redigox, does not represent Vinhaven as a whole, we are working hard to make this town grow, and we are aware of the negativity that surrounds him.

 

 

Lastly as Ultra said, we won't attempt this again, and I had no part in the matter (didn't know we had one till it was completed.) Let the matter slide.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Trooprm32

[Kunoburesu]

Since the private grinder was built, on more than one occasion I have heard people in the public grinder claim, "The [public] grinder is working better than ever right now!" So it's obviously not making that big of a difference. The complete lack of Enderman is server lag, because I've seen both grinders full of endermen at the same time, everything working smoothly, and I've also seen both with no Endermen at the same time. There is no rule against private grinders, or building 100 grinders in the end for that matter, no rules were violated. And it's not really that much of a dick move, considering, as stated before, I've seen both grinders running smoothly (which by the way, from a  set rule stand point, is completely ridiculous considering what is and isn't "being a dick" is entirely subjective, but that's somewhat unrelated) 

 

 

As for Redigox, yes he can be an ass sometimes, but the sole actions of Redigox as well do not represent Vinhaven, and you have no right to cite the incident between him and totemo as a mark against Vinhaven, he worked alone and did not inform the rest of us of his actions, as none of us would have approved. That fact has no business being include in this argument. Everyone keeps talking about how dickish Vinhaven is, but aside from a private grinder, which is shared by Atlantis, and has not made a substantial  change to the overall End grinding experience, you haven't actually said much.

 

Sorry if I've over lapped with previous statements, I typed this first then wait for others to post.

[Druchii89]

The vibe i'm getting so far is "We're sorry, but we don't care or agree with you". Which saddens me.

The rules have been quoted, the grinder appears to break at least 1 of them ("Don't be a dick" is somewhat applying as well, depending on viewpoint).

Kunoburesu, in the past few days i've heard many complaints that the End Grinder is slow, nothing is spawning, or that in general, it used to be far faster. (I've experienced massive slow downs, while everything else appeared to be working fine... Odd).

I find it sad that this may well have caused issues, and for Erdt to take some flak for it.

In general, i think we should do away with private grinders. They cause issues.

[erdt]

First off, PvtSnowball and Redigox do not represent Vinhaven as a whole, and appropriate steps have been taken to deal with these two. It saddens me that Vinhaven's reputation can be so easily soured by two twats.

See, that's the problem, you can either have a town of nice, trusted people OR lots of random players with little to no research on them. I'm not saying any of these is bad, but my personal opinion is, one shouldn't be adding people to town perms based on a whim. Otherwise, the community is more likely to project player's deeds onto a bigger entity if the wrongdoing repeats. That's the way it works and you can see the very example in those chat logs.

What about the other grinders that are blocked off to residents in the Overworld, they're no different.

See my first post. I've been addressing every kind of private grinders there, not just end grinders.

Besides, it's not a significant area, most people have homes bigger than this.

You've missed the point that 1. people's homes are accessible to other players and 2. the grinder's impact on others is way bigger than player homes'. 1000 water blocks in an ocean on the other side of the map doesn't bother you, but just one over your redstone contraption is hell. See now? Edited May 26, 2013 by erdt

[Guest Former Staff]

This discussion is going very off-topic and frankly rather disappointing in the digs at one and another, even neighbouring servers. Remember that you're all part of the same community that have made this revision so vibrant and likely many others in the past, and hopefully others in future.

 

Lets not lower ourselves to this type of conversation and focus on the important discussion point; Should End grinders be public only?

 

Keep the discussion on point and work together on a resolution so that one or more of the PvE Admins can join in with you.

[xXNjordXx]

I see alot of you guys still running around in circles here instead of keeping on the topic

So please get back on topic

 

Edit: Dammit barli

[Trooprm32]

This discussion is going very off-topic and frankly rather disappointing in the digs at one and another, even neighbouring servers. Remember that you're all part of the same community that have made this revision so vibrant and likely many others in the past, and hopefully others in future.

 

Lets not lower ourselves to this type of conversation and focus on the important discussion point; Should End grinders be public only?

 

Keep the discussion on point and work together on a resolution so that one or more of the PvE Admins can join in with you.

 

Maybe they should be. The issue is more leaning towards having more than 1 grinder. Should the server impose a limit of 1 end grinder, stated in the rules? I guess that would be something a PvE Admin would have to take into consideration. I would support this rule to stop further unhealthy conflicts like this. I don't like conflicts.

 

Edit; It saddens me that theres fighting on this server, I hope we can all get along in the future :)

Edited May 26, 2013 by Trooprm32

[xXNjordXx]

Well i dont think we need a rule that states Only 1 Endgrinder is allowed. Ppl just need to use Common sense.

If there is an End grinder up and running, we dont need a second one. Its that simple.

Also the End grinder should always be Pulic, because the End is a rather small part of the map with a limited amount of mobs.

Blocking a part of a small map of from the public is a pretty stupid idea because its always causing drama. We are P not S we have no need for private End grinders, because no one can kill you while you are grinding.

[ultrahub]

Maybe they should be. The issue is more leaning towards having more than 1 grinder. Should the server impose a limit of 1 end grinder, stated in the rules? I guess that would be something a PvE Admin would have to take into consideration. I would support this rule to stop further unhealthy conflicts like this. I don't like conflicts.

 

Edit; It saddens me that theres fighting on this server, I hope we can all get along in the future :)

I concur with troop, a limit may be needed to avoid further hostilities and to satisfy the masses. I think this may remain an issue until some sort of rule or regulation is made to make this less of a grey area.

[Trooprm32]

Well i dont think we need a rule that states Only 1 Endgrinder is allowed. Ppl just need to use Common sense.

If there is an End grinder up and running, we dont need a second one. Its that simple.

Also the End grinder should always be Pulic, because the End is a rather small part of the map with a limited amount of mobs.

Blocking a part of a small map of from the public is a pretty stupid idea because its always causing drama. We are P not S we have no need for private End grinders, because no one can kill you while you are grinding.

I do agree with you Njord. But the thing is, a lot of people don't have common sense. Yes it causes drama, too much, I didn't help the cause, and I should have never responded at all in this thread :\

[Redigox]

 Redigox here, definately not pleased on how I or vinhaven are viewed in this subject. I agree that I am the more  agressive mayors of vinhaven and I definately can not blame myself for getting pissed at this crap, especially since i woke up to this hoping to continue building my lovely end fort home but now i have to respond to this even though my fellow vinhavians told me to just ignore it which I find deeply impossible.

 

 First off, I did not build this Grinder, I do not even know how to build this thing, why? because I do not give a damn about it, I for one can say I am not dependent on an end grinder due to the fact I have played this game and was completely happy and content about things even before the end existed. My view on this now is that I want the end dead, erdt clearly has something against vinhaven, you viewing us as agressive barbarians that you think need to go to PvP is ridiculous. Just because we love medieval times and feel like adding random siege camps around to switch things and have our version of fun does not mean we hate you, no matter how much we roleplay we do not "hate" anyone at all, the only people I hate are the people I have to modreq in order to get a problem resolved or someone that ruins my morning.

 

 This other part I did not enjoy reading at all on account it had literally nothing to do with the topic and was just used to pretty much lower the views of anyone who looks at vinhaven, just because one town member breaks a rule does not mean our entire town is full of griefers. I have also put the totemo incident behind me and there is no "grudge" at all, he does his job and the things he wants and I do the things id do and want but more carefully. Also another thing that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject which was also brought up by erdt as well which at that point of reading I could definately say he has a bone to pick with Vinhaven. we can invite anyone we please to our town and if they fail to keep to our expectations by griefing or representing us in an obvious negative way publicly I can definately say they have failed the test and they must sadly pack their bags and be on their way (its called the process of elimination by performance which is used in real life for many things like an employer checking up on his workers or even just an ant not doing so well with the colony *it gunna get kicked out or eaten*).

 

 As of now this entire end grinder ordeal is ridiculous and am here to say that.... well, you will regret even bringing this up. Ultra is the good side and I love that, please if anyone has any problems i would be glad if he can just take it and deal with, but when it gets to me (the other side of the coin *or force whichever you prefer*) I will slam my fist down and try to get it out of the way as soon as possible in order to save us the stress. but this is not how its going to go down. I am pissed that our town is bashed like this and I will be damned if it I am going to let this all just fly away. Now I (because erdt completely accused me of building an end grinder) I am goinng to go build yet another end grinder in the hopes the mods say... "well fuck this stress lets take the end down". So go ahead and keep bitching erdt because that gives me what I want and I really do want it so end grinders are not allowed on this server and I know at least one mod that would agree on account they are overpowered and uneeded. Have a lovely day irl or on the server :)

[thrawn21]

Alrighty guys, let please keep this to a discussion about end grinders and public/private spaces on PvE. The issue is not about who's said what or cities or reputations, and I don't want people flaming each other here, as that just pushes the discussion off track. As I see it, the question is:

 

• Should private groups or individuals be allowed to build personal grinders in the end?

 

And this could be broadened to discuss the entirety of the PvE rule:

 

• The map should be considered open for exploration. Players are not allowed to completely block off large sections of the map. Access to land and buildings should not be "restricted". Anything can be explored by anyone. Rare exceptions include structures such as private animal farms.

​

But for the sake of keeping things simple, I think we should just focus on end grinders. My personal view is that the end is a limited resource, and so while it's fine to build multiple functional grinders, it's not okay to block them off from global server use.

[Druchii89]

But for the sake of keeping things simple, I think we should just focus on end grinders. My personal view is that the end is a limited resource, and so while it's fine to build multiple functional grinders, it's not okay to block them off from global server use.

 

This sounds like a reasonable way to handle the situation, with one issue... The amount of mobs available in The End.

Are there any reliable ways to test just how many "End Grinders" we can have running at once, without impacting the spawnrate of Endermen? If so, we should find the limit, and set a rule relating to that limit, surely?

This way we have the most available grinders, all publicly open, and several different designs can be used / made.

[Redigox]

We could just keep building them until we find out when they start turning to complete crap and stop there.

[thelethalkind]

Is the grinder blocked off or just the location has not been announced?  I'd like to point out that survival has many private end grinders going on, and they are able to be used by any person who comes across one.

[Druchii89]

Is the grinder blocked off or just the location has not been announced?  I'd like to point out that survival has many private end grinders going on, and they are able to be used by any person who comes across one.

 

Location is "hidden" but obvious if you look for it.

Actual access to the grinder itself is blocked by piston door, and can only be accessed if you have permissions to open a specific chest. (Which only certain members of certain towns do)

[xXNjordXx]

As of now this entire end grinder ordeal is ridiculous and am here to say that.... well, you will regret even bringing this up. Ultra is the good side and I love that, please if anyone has any problems i would be glad if he can just take it and deal with, but when it gets to me (the other side of the coin *or force whichever you prefer*) I will slam my fist down and try to get it out of the way as soon as possible in order to save us the stress. but this is not how its going to go down. I am pissed that our town is bashed like this and I will be damned if it I am going to let this all just fly away. Now I (because erdt completely accused me of building an end grinder) I am goinng to go build yet another end grinder in the hopes the mods say... "well fuck this stress lets take the end down". So go ahead and keep bitching erdt because that gives me what I want and I really do want it so end grinders are not allowed on this server and I know at least one mod that would agree on account they are overpowered and uneeded. Have a lovely day irl or on the server :)

 

So you are saying because of the Drama from the first End grinder you want to build another End grinder just to cause more Drama ?

I think instead of us removing the End from the server we will just remove you then.

[princessugly]

I'm going to counter some of the points posted before. The rule of blocking off a large section of the map is moot. The BLOCKED off area is smaller than a house and its in the middle of nowhere in the end. Second, the one end grinder agreement is literally meaningless because there is no official word behind it. Third, using redstone for private areas is completely legal and has been brought up in chat several times and I asked mods a couple times to confirm the legality of the grinder. I'd compare the private grinder to that of a private iron grinder. Those things take up a massive amount of space, yet they are allowed to be private. Moreover, as I see it the end is turning into a xp grinder and nothing else which is against the spirit of PVE. Players should be allowed to build whatever they want in the end.