Team xray rollback on Survival

[SpiderMan]

What is the standard procedure for this?

 

What should be the standard procedure for this?

 

Discuss

 

-gsand

D';

[Willravel]

The standard procedure, more or less, is as follows. 

 

1) Either a modreq, a private message, accusation in chat, or moderator stumbling upon it brings a possible X-ray to our attention. 

 

2) One moderator investigates and, if it looks suspicious, brings in more moderators to corroborate. 

 

3) Second and often third moderator investigate. 

 

4) If a consensus is reached, the evidence is collected and the x-rayer is banned. If a consensus is not reached, a note is added to the account that there's suspected x-raying and we have to simply monitor the suspect. 

 

The reason this generally requires corroboration is, in theory, people are innocent until proven guilty, and because x-rays often require a clear inventory and a full rollback, it's more serious than banning for something like griefing or even hate speech. Unfortunately, this also means that x-ray moderqs can take more time—sometimes a lot more time—than traditional moderator issues.

 

This has become an even bigger problem with Citidel because it's increased the motivation to x-ray to include chests full of valuables and for the purpose of griefing. I've banned more players for x-ray this revision than I have in the past 5 or 6 revisions combined, in large part because x-raying for ore does not actively cause harm to other players, just passively removes the opportunity for finding ores and creates an unfair imbalance in the game that's basically only theoretical. I've been x-rayed three times this revision, and I've been forced to significantly change my style of play as a result, essentially adopting Chaos strategies because I know that people x-raying for chests abound and speaking from experience that not all of those caught will be dumb enough to have made it obvious. 

 

As a result, it's requiring that the staff adapt quickly to the new paradigm. As I mentioned, this is a new type and level of x-raying, which means the staff is moving to adapt to deal with it, and some of us—and I include myself in this—are not adapting as quickly as the server needs. X-rayers on previous revisions were by and large completely incompetent. They'd dig straight to diamond from far away, making no attempt to even try to hide what they were doing. The mining ratios would be completely askew. Now? We have people who have been using x-ray and related cheats for years (elsewhere) who have learned to make it look accidental using techniques that I won't discuss but that you and I can pretty easily deduce. It's added an additional layer to a process that's already not as fast as people are used to. 

[Diznatch52]

I don't think this what he meant. If I'm wrong, please correct me. I'm understand this to be the case of a team of people who get into a base through the use of xray. The thing is that only one person on the team is actually xraying and the others just follow him in. Should they all be rolled back? Just the xrayer? Etc.

 

In my opinion, they should all be rolled back, since the gains were made through the use of hacking, regardless of who was actually xraying.

[jllmprrt]

I don't think this what he meant. If I'm wrong, please correct me. I'm understand this to be the case of a team of people who get into a base through the use of xray. The thing is that only one person on the team is actually xraying and the others just follow him in. Should they all be rolled back? Just the xrayer? Etc.

 

In my opinion, they should all be rolled back, since the gains were made through the use of hacking, regardless of who was actually xraying.

I believe this is the case, as multiple people have been banned from (knowingly) using items gained through illegal means. Leaving out names here.

[TheRandomnatrix]

I don't think this what he meant. If I'm wrong, please correct me. I'm understand this to be the case of a team of people who get into a base through the use of xray. The thing is that only one person on the team is actually xraying and the others just follow him in. Should they all be rolled back? Just the xrayer? Etc.

 

In my opinion, they should all be rolled back, since the gains were made through the use of hacking, regardless of who was actually xraying.

To what extent would they be rolled back? Perhaps if they know that one of their members is xraying then a full rollback is in order, but what if for instance one of the clanmates "finds" a base then proceeds to tell the others the coordinates without the others knowing it was xray. 

[Diznatch52]

To what extent would they be rolled back? Perhaps if they know that one of their members is xraying then a full rollback is in order, but what if for instance one of the clanmates "finds" a base then proceeds to tell the others the coordinates without the others knowing it was xray. 

Right, I don't mean a full rollback like what would happen to the xrayer, just a rollback of the damage done to that base. They shouldn't be penalized, but neither should the owners of the base.

[roastnewt]

Sometimes there's just a limit to what can be fixed.  For example, our base got x-rayed, and the x-rayer said our coordinates in chat.  Mods can't force everyone to forget our coordinates, so we had to move.

[elbeau]

X-ray is one of the most difficult issues to handle correctly.  Like Willravel said, we're dealing with folks who seem to be disguising it better than others have in the past.  When you compound this with the fact that it requires rollbacks, cleared inventories, and a significantly long ban period, we need to be very sure that a player isn't just a victim of coincidence.

 

In almost all cases, the evidence against an X-rayer is circumstantial, and circumstantial evidence can be misleading.  For instance, when I first played Minecraft I played just a little bit in single-player mode then logged onto S because a friend of mine had recommended it.  At that time I was more afraid of creepers than I was of other players and I didn't know a thing about modifying my client or using texture packs, etc..  So I spawned on S, walked around a little until I found a place to build, piddled around a while, then realized that I really needed to go mining.  I dug a staircase all the way down to bedrock directly into a vein of diamond ore.  I was excited so I started strip-mining that whole area and found another vein nearby.  I wasn't X-raying or cheating in any way, but if someone had investigated me for X-ray at that moment they would certainly have come to the conclusion that I was guilty.  They would have been wrong, but I would not have had any way to prove it.

 

Now I'm the one trying to detect X-rayers and I'm running into folks who just seem to be overly-lucky at finding stuff.  Part of me wants to jump to a quick conclusion that they are X-raying based off of one or two coincidences, but another part of me remembers that first day on S.

 

X-ray is a BIG problem right now, especially now that chests can be broken.  We are working hard to solve it, but it's not a simple task.  Please be patient while we do our jobs carefully.

[Diznatch52]

X-ray is one of the most difficult issues to handle correctly.  Like Willravel said, we're dealing with folks who seem to be disguising it better than others have in the past.  When you compound this with the fact that it requires rollbacks, cleared inventories, and a significantly long ban period, we need to be very sure that a player isn't just a victim of coincidence.

 

In almost all cases, the evidence against an X-rayer is circumstantial, and circumstantial evidence can be misleading.  For instance, when I first played Minecraft I played just a little bit in single-player mode then logged onto S because a friend of mine had recommended it.  At that time I was more afraid of creepers than I was of other players and I didn't know a thing about modifying my client or using texture packs, etc..  So I spawned on S, walked around a little until I found a place to build, piddled around a while, then realized that I really needed to go mining.  I dug a staircase all the way down to bedrock directly into a vein of diamond ore.  I was excited so I started strip-mining that whole area and found another vein nearby.  I wasn't X-raying or cheating in any way, but if someone had investigated me for X-ray at that moment they would certainly have come to the conclusion that I was guilty.  They would have been wrong, but I would not have had any way to prove it.

 

Now I'm the one trying to detect X-rayers and I'm running into folks who just seem to be overly-lucky at finding stuff.  Part of me wants to jump to a quick conclusion that they are X-raying based off of one or two coincidences, but another part of me remembers that first day on S.

 

X-ray is a BIG problem right now, especially now that chests can be broken.  We are working hard to solve it, but it's not a simple task.  Please be patient while we do our jobs carefully.

 

I appreciate that x-raying is a difficult thing to handle, but I'm not sure what you have added to this discussion. This isn't a discussion about how we need to ban more x-rayers. It's a discussion of how to handle teams of people when some but not all are x-raying. Did you read at all past Willravel's post before responding?

[elbeau]

I appreciate that x-raying is a difficult thing to handle, but I'm not sure what you have added to this discussion. This isn't a discussion about how we need to ban more x-rayers. It's a discussion of how to handle teams of people when some but not all are x-raying. Did you read at all past Willravel's post before responding?

 

Although it's not specified in the title or content of his post, this issue does relate to a specific modreq that gsand is hoping to get resolved.  It has been taking longer than usual to resolve so I was simply asking for patience while we handle it.

[GetaFever]

I've spent a lot of time speaking with my clan about group x-raying on S. I have to admit that I cannot think of a just and reasonable way of handling this. It is just so tricky. Since I was a victim of this, I immediately wanted a new rule similar to guilt by association. After stepping back and thinking about it further, I realized that it's just not logical or reasonable to implement a rule like that.

 

One thing I do know for sure is that the S community needs to collaborate and look into a way of dealing with this issue.