Vanilla PvP is broken in 1.6.

[IDNAUB]

Strength was buffed in 1.6 and now it takes less than 9 hits to kill someone in prot IV armour with a sharpness V diamond sword and a strength II potion. Fights last around 30 seconds now and it's really not fun anymore.

 

It would be a good idea to remove strength potions in the next rev and limit enchantments accordingly to keep it balanced. The most fun combination I've found after playing around with 1.6 is protection III with sharpness II swords with no strength or regen potions. Fights become less about whose armour breaks first and more about who runs out of health potions. Fights are still lengthy but are not as long as protection IV fights which I know people have been complaining about recently.

 

Sorry for any formatting issues or run-on sentences, it's really late where I am right now and I really shouldn't be writing this.

 

EDIT: So I'm too lazy to record my own footage so here's a fight with prot 3 sharp 2 in 1.6.2.

Edited July 12, 2013 by IDNAUB

[Diznatch52]

I'd be up for this.

[buchanman]

It's nice that you posted here on the forums, IDANUB, because of how much hatred would go on if this was posted on the subreddit.

 

Let me begin with how I approach these suggestions. I do not want things to be taken away most of the time, and to instead take a different approach. The reason is because of the failed attempt to "bring back PvP" during revision 18 (iirc) really showed me how these kinds of drastic changes that take things away from the game tend to make things worse. By removing certain potions and enchantments, it confuses the new players, and limits our gameplay. Just because something works for you, does not mean it works for the whole player-base. 

 

Next, I would like to add my input on what we can do with this suggestion. 

• Add Plugins to Support the Idea

​We can still keep this idea (I do not support it, however), but have plugins to ensure the players understand the changes. During Revision 18, the only thing reminding players about the changes were the signs in spawn (which I'm sure not many players never got to read them) and the subreddit update, which some new players might have not seen. My idea is to have the /enchant plugin implemented, and the options listed out infront of the player as to what enchantments can be made (i.e. /enchant -> "Enchantments: Protection I, Protection II"). We can also have the regular server notifications reminding players that we have limited enchantment and potions (i.e. [server] Note that you can only have up to Protection II enchantments, and Strength Potions are removed!).

• Remove Focus from PvP

​I understand that PvP is what the cool kids do on this server, but I think our focus on PvP is too much. Many players come and go for the reason that they either hate the PvP, or hate the "vanilla-ness" of the server. As many people have heard, read, seen, or discussed, "S is Dead". Yes, that may be true due to our low player base during the endings of revisions, and the boring aspect of it all. This is the case because of how attached we are to vanilla Minecraft (Also: no beds, D:). I'm not too sure about this part of S, so I won't get too into it- this is not my business. 

But I do want to see drastic changes on this server to increase the player count and fun. Events that heavily rely on plugins are often huge successes (including ones that don't have PvP in them!), but the Technical Admin assistance demand is very high. So I understand that moving away from vanilla Minecraft is quite complicated.

By removing the focus away from PvP, having these Strength and Regeneration potions, Enchantment, won't play a big effect on our server. We need to have a different kind of competition that doesn't heavily involve PvP on our server (I know factions are hated by this community, I won't talk about that). I don't have any ideas on me right now, as I have other things to worry about, but that is like a "discussion-opener".

 

With that said, I'm not too crazy about this idea, especially because it takes away major aspects of Minecraft. I'd like to see instead other ways of approaching this issue, or adding plugins to balance it out (which I don't have any ideas on).  

Edited July 12, 2013 by buchanman

[IDNAUB]

Bucha, it's not possible to pvp with vanilla enchantments in 1.6. It needs change or otherwise noone will pvp because it's way too much grind for a five second fight (including mining). You know better than anyone else that it's REALLY bad, I fought you in 1.6.2 and the fight lasted a good 10 seconds or so. 

 

Edit: Also Rev 18 and 19 weren't bad, it was just the length of the revisions that made them stale.

 

Edit2: Alright you added more stuff to your post, I`ll look into it when I`m up in the morning. Just wanted to let you know I didn`t brush off the rest of your post and only read the start.

Edited July 12, 2013 by IDNAUB

[buchanman]

Bucha, it's not possible to pvp with vanilla enchantments in 1.6. It needs change or otherwise noone will pvp because it's way too much grind for a five second fight (including mining). You know better than anyone else that it's REALLY bad, I fought you in 1.6.2 and the fight lasted a good 10 seconds or so. 

 

Edit: Also Rev 18 and 19 weren't bad, it was just the length of the revisions that made them stale.

 Sorry- I accidentally posted my reply before I was done typing. I added the part that says to add some sort of plugin to the server to balance it our instead of removing enchantments and potions.

Edited July 12, 2013 by buchanman

[AdamNorcott]

 

Strength was buffed in 1.6 and now it takes less than 9 hits to kill someone in prot IV armour with a sharpness V diamond sword and a strength II potion. Fights last around 30 seconds now and it's really not fun anymore.

 

I just have to point this out because it is so funny to me, You posted an almost 5 minute video of a fight to prove that fights only last 30 seconds now.... seems like a bit of a disconnect there.

[Diznatch52]

I just have to point this out because it is so funny to me, You posted an almost 5 minute video of a fight to prove that fights only last 30 seconds now.... seems like a bit of a disconnect there.

No, that was a fight with prot3 s2, as was his suggestion to compensate for such a problem.

[uni0]

Ida, I would have to try it out, but from what it's shown on the video it sounds like a good solution. What I do agree 100% is that something should be done. I've been trying the PVP in 1.6 and fights do indeed last 20-30 seconds. This means that players spend hours getting gear only to lose it in 30 seconds. Everyone I talk to, including good pvpers that do well on 1.6 admit that it's messed up.

 

We've had s revs in the past with bad policies/mechanics and we went through full revs without any adjustments (ie OP bows in rev19 for example). Or 2 hour grinding for a single item in rev 12.

 

Lets be proactive and smart about this, lets not go into a new rev with something as messed up as this.

[TornadoHorse]

I agree with you, IDANUB. Something definitely needs to change if we want PvP to continue being a key feature of the Survival server. Minecraft was never designed for PvP, and it seems with every update it has been getting worse and worse. Of course it was not designed with PvP in mind, but that doesn't mean we should abandon all hope of having fun PvP. Many people enjoy it, so we should look in to changes to make it better. An idea brought up a few weeks ago was to put a cap on certain enchantments such as protection, sharpness to make it easier to get armour and make fights fairer. However this probably wouldn't work as well now with the new update (although I have not tested).

 

I really think we need a meeting on mumble discussing changes, even if it's not an official thing. We tried to get something going with the google document but it was forgotten soon after. 

 

Edit: Sorry if anything doesn't make sense, wasn't properly concentrating.

Edited July 12, 2013 by TornadoHorse

[Richi]

This can be a great combination with many new plugins the techadmins will add next revision in survival, Enchantism in particular. With the xp plump, Enchantism, and if it is possible to add the max protection/sharpness addition, s may be a bit more entertaining, because you won't have to spend hours grinding for a 30 second match which is in my opinion a complete waste of time. I'm totally up for this, and I hope something like this might happen 

[buchanman]

Why can't we just ban Strength II... it seems like the only option that actually works and won't take away so much from the game?

[Tharine]

Personally speaking, i've always been of the mindset similar to buchanman's in that i'd like to see positive (adding things in) changes made to the server where an issue arises, before trying to remove parts of the game, particularly when it comes to something so contentious and complicated as enchanting. I don't like the idea of capping enchantments or potions for this reason. However, i'd like to make it clear - as whenever myself or Draykhar comment on these kinds of threads it tends to get taken as the final word, which is why we hold off on commenting for so long - that this is my personal stance, not an official one. 

 

Speaking properly as an admin, I can see that changes need to be made and I would like to help work out a solution that best fits as many people as possible. I had toyed with the idea of suggesting a sort of 'grace period' of two weeks into the new revision, where we allowed everyone the opportunity to experience all of the newer plugin changes we're making (Enchantism being of particular note) without these proposed changes in effect. However, in thinking it over a great deal more I realised that all this would mean is people would stock up on Protection IV gear within those first two weeks and hold onto it for the remainder of the revision, essentially meaning people who joined following that grace period would have no hope of surviving a fight. Instead, I would like to suggest that we perhaps take inspiration from the chaos events that are currently running and (providing that we have tech admin availability, and of course the ready plugins) make sure we host a decent 1.6.2 round of chaos with all of the changes we're going ahead with making for the new revision. I suggest this not from the perspective of someone who doesn't trust the judgement of those that have already commented here, but because our Survival community is a bit more segmented than it might immediately appear. I recognise the handful of people that have commented here with their experiences so far, but I know there are a bunch more players on Survival that play either predominantly solo, or are not anywhere near as involved in the subreddit/forums, ultimately meaning that they might not have had the chance to experience 1.6 gameplay on other servers so far. I'd like to give everyone in our community the chance to experience the 1.6 changes, so that they can make an informed decision on what will affect them.

 

With that said, and given that it's been a couple of weeks since this thread started, I would like to ask those more experienced in trying out the 1.6 PvP changes (i've played only 1.6 PvE so far myself) whether the initial proposal of "protection III with sharpness II swords with no strength or regen potions" is still considered a good solution. I see that buchanman has recently suggested removing strength II potions only - what do others think of this idea / does anyone have any different suggestions for how we can work around this problem?

[IDNAUB]

With that said, and given that it's been a couple of weeks since this thread started, I would like to ask those more experienced in trying out the 1.6 PvP changes (i've played only 1.6 PvE so far myself) whether the initial proposal of "protection III with sharpness II swords with no strength or regen potions" is still considered a good solution. I see that buchanman has recently suggested removing strength II potions only - what do others think of this idea / does anyone have any different suggestions for how we can work around this problem?

Even strength 1 is op and we still do 130% more damage as opposed to a quarter of a heart extra like in 1.5. I really don't think that leaving any form of strength in would be a good idea unless we put a cap on enchantments on swords :/. Eliminating strength and keeping it at prot 4 sharp 5 would be really dull I think as well. I really only suggested protection 3 sharpness 2 because it would be easy to set as the limit with enchantism and then editing the config of the thing they limit potions with not to allow brewing with blaze powder or ghast tears. If people don't like that there are more balanced styles of pvp out there :P

There's one I've seen on another pvp server in 1.6 that balanced it pretty nicely and it's pretty close to vanilla: prot IV diamond, sharpness 4 on sword, no strength 2 pots allowed (but strength 1 is). Everything else is allowed. A lot of players on survival go on that server to practice pvp, there's probably at least some that have tried it out. It's pretty much what buchan wanted but with sharpness 4 on the swords, you die too quickly with sharpness 5.

EDIT: I have no idea how to forum and I can't format. Also I typed this mostly on my phone and I think I screwed up the font size. Sorry about that lol

 

Also I think that Prot III sharp II is still better because it's more about inventory management. With legacy you can get 1 lucky combo and win. Sharpness is a really weird enchantment and it makes you do a random amount of damage, then that random damage is multiplied by 130% with strength. It's less about skill imo and more about luck - the lower the sharpness level the better imo.

Edited July 28, 2013 by IDNAUB

[TornadoHorse]

This is something we need to get sorted out, if possible before the start of the new revision. With a strength II potion and a sharpness V sword you can kill a player in Prot. IV armour with about 6 hits. You shouldn't have to spend a few hours grinding just to lose your items within 10 seconds. Seeing as PvP is mainly decided on lag and who can click faster, this is something that should be a high priority. So far, there are no plans to change the power of potions or enchantments. I don't want to have to ban strength potions, but at the moment it seems like the only option.

 

Edit: The best thing that could happen is if potions are switched back to how they were in 1.5. Far simpler and not OP.

Edit 2: And if it hasn't been already, take out knockback IV from enchantism.

Edit 3: Everything in Enchantism you wouldn't be able to get normally (Looting IV, Fire Aspect IV etc.). Enchantism makes it far too easy to get good armour, at least keep the need for bookshelves.

Edited August 4, 2013 by TornadoHorse

[AC130]

As long as the PvP doesn't stay Vanilla, it will be a successful revision. I am equally happy with either the Legacy enchants change, or Sharp 2, prot 3.

[IDNAUB]

http://www.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/strength-potion-fix

[Tharine]

So far, there are no plans to change the power of potions or enchantments. I don't want to have to ban strength potions, but at the moment it seems like the only option.

 

I'd just like to reiterate that when asked about this last night, I stated that at that very moment there had been no changes made to potions. We're not overlooking this matter, but come on guys, as with several other changes for proposal, there has been a significant lack of discussion from the playerbase on what they actually want. Most of the feedback i've gotten is 'strength is too overpowered' but not any formal suggestions for how to remedy the problems it causes. I've appreciated the feedback given here wholeheartedly, but I honestly wish more people would provide their input on this sort of thing. I took a greater look into this last night, and the buff to strength potions is apparently a result of the Attributes system Mojang brought into place with 1.6. I don't quite understand how this works, but if this is possible to mess with on our end, we can definitely fix it at its root and lower the buff. I'll be asking the tech admins about this, and what the best solution might be (including providing your link, thank you IDANUB), but in the event that a proper solution can't be met within the next week - likely as a result of indecisiveness about the best method of fixing this, rather than not wanting to do so - we'll probably fall to using banning the brewing of strength potions as our backup until that's sorted out. Personally speaking, i'm all for bringing strength back down to its 1.5 status.

 

 

Edit 2: And if it hasn't been already, take out knockback IV from enchantism.

Edit 3: Everything in Enchantism you wouldn't be able to get normally (Looting IV, Fire Aspect IV etc.). Enchantism makes it far too easy to get good armour, at least keep the need for bookshelves.

 

The whole point of Enchantism is to make getting good armour easier. People have been complaining for the longest time that no one wants to fight in good armour because it's so easily lost as a result of lag or similar issues, and this should hopefully be remedied somewhat by making it easier to replace that armour. We can adjust the levels to balance that out, but again, I need solid feedback from people on what they want to do with this. I updated the config file for some more reasonable experience requirements here, but that's definitely open for more improvement. The -1 signifies an enchantment that will be removed, which i've only done so far for the redundant ones (i.e. Silk Touch 2-4, Flame 2-4). I was hoping to get this put onto chaos for this current round (not sure if it has been yet) to give everyone a proper feel for the difference in requirements compared to default. That said, let me know what you would like changed/removed from that updated config. I've tried to make the levels all pretty reasonable, e.g. Infinity is a damn good enchant and deserving of level 30 (especially because you can choose to get it); Punch II might be more deserving of 20 levels because it's a good enchant, but not as important as Power, Flame or Infinity would be on a bow. I've left the non-vanilla-levelled enchants in there just for now because there was mixed feedback about them. We can definitely move to remove them if they seem far too out of place. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to incorporate the need for bookshelves into Enchantism, you would need to direct your questions about that to smiler100 in particular, as he wrote it.

[smiler100]

Kind of off-topic, but I've managed to get Enchantism to work with bookshelves, it just would need to be pushed up to the server for it to take effect (it's on by default, can be turned off via config). The bookshelf system works as follows:

• Level I enchants require no bookshelves to be used.
• Level II enchants require 5 bookshelves.
• Level III enchants require 10.
• Level IV enchants require 15 (the vanilla amount of bookshelves required for a level 30 enchanting table)

It works quite well, and if it were not wanted it can be turned off very easily.

[AC130]

 I've appreciated the feedback given here wholeheartedly, but I honestly wish more people would provide their input on this sort of thing. I took a greater look into this last night, and the buff to strength potions is apparently a result of the Attributes system Mojang brought into place with 1.6. I don't quite understand how this works, but if this is possible to mess with on our end, we can definitely fix it at its root and lower the buff. I'll be asking the tech admins about this, and what the best solution might be (including providing your link, thank you IDANUB), but in the event that a proper solution can't be met within the next week - likely as a result of indecisiveness about the best method of fixing this, rather than not wanting to do so - we'll probably fall to using banning the brewing of strength potions as our backup until that's sorted out. Personally speaking, i'm all for bringing strength back down to its 1.5 status.

 

 

Input I shall give to clarify the situation to you, Tharine.

 

What Mojang did for 1.6 that "broke" Vanilla PvP, was that they had both nerfed instant health potions by 33%, and Regeneration by 50%. Additionally, they had changed the crafting recipe for glistering melon, (ingredient needed to get health potions), by making it require 8 golden nuggets instead of 1. It seemed that they wanted to tone down all potions that healed the player, (they also changed the effect from golden apples by adding absorption). However, by doing this, they did not tone down the effect of strength, and instead, buffed it indirectly. What I mean by this is now swords provide information when hovering over them, with stats on how much damage you will be doing. (for diamond swords, +7 damage). This does not mean that the diamond sword does 7 damage, (3 and half hearts) as it did in 1.5, it simply means it adds +7 to the flat unarmed damage of 1 heart, (half a heart). Because of this, strength buffs that extra heart of damage from the fist, meaning that a diamond sword with strength now does more damage then it used to. (Causing people to believe that strength was buffed. 

 

As IDANUB has brought up, we do not need to configure with the files that contain the damage formula, or anything remotely difficult as that, all we need to do is to either remove strength completely, and limit enchants to prot 3 sharp 2, OR, have the enchants and potions like the legacy at badlion. (Something like prot 4, sharp 4, strength limited to 1). 

 

Sources:

http://imgur.com/a/6KA6d#0 (Reddit post about sword damage buff)

http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Sword (In 1.6.2, instead of replacing the barehanded damage 1 () Swords now add their damage onto the barehanded damage, which results in all swords doing 1 () more damage than before.)

http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Version_history#1.6.1 (Regen, health potion nerf).

Edited August 5, 2013 by AC130

[IDNAUB]

If you're considering fixing the strength I'd suggest buffing the nerfed health potions as well. This guy did it with 6 lines of code so I doubt it would be anywhere near as hard to fix as the strength potions - http://www.reddit.com/r/MineZ/comments/1hx9fc/162_potions_message_to_the_developers/cayuthd

 

Also keep the regen potions nerfed please. Regen was overpowered and it was a much needed nerf.

Edited August 5, 2013 by IDNAUB

[Tharine]

As per this updated subreddit thread, we've gone ahead and included a nerf for strength potions so that they should now have the same effects that they did in 1.5 (thank you zifnab06 for getting this done!). Personally speaking, i've been incredibly busy this week and have not had the chance to look into the other suggestions just yet, so we'll hold off on making any decisions about those just now as there obviously isn't the time to do so prior to the launch of the new revision. We'll definitely take these into consideration when we have the chance following map launch.

[leemur89]

imho put thorns max on all armor.

[leemur89]

really? comon guys. If player.(true) return While player.(false) aggro. Dont call me derp.

[leemur89]

 

Strength was buffed in 1.6 and now it takes less than 9 hits to kill someone in prot IV armour with a sharpness V diamond sword and a strength II potion. Fights last around 30 seconds now and it's really not fun anymore.

 

It would be a good idea to remove strength potions in the next rev and limit enchantments accordingly to keep it balanced. The most fun combination I've found after playing around with 1.6 is protection III with sharpness II swords with no strength or regen potions. Fights become less about whose armour breaks first and more about who runs out of health potions. Fights are still lengthy but are not as long as protection IV fights which I know people have been complaining about recently.

 

Sorry for any formatting issues or run-on sentences, it's really late where I am right now and I really shouldn't be writing this.

 

EDIT: So I'm too lazy to record my own footage so here's a fight with prot 3 sharp 2 in 1.6.2.

 

BS!

[zifnab06]

If you're considering fixing the strength I'd suggest buffing the nerfed health potions as well. This guy did it with 6 lines of code so I doubt it would be anywhere near as hard to fix as the strength potions - http://www.reddit.com/r/MineZ/comments/1hx9fc/162_potions_message_to_the_developers/cayuthd

 

Also keep the regen potions nerfed please. Regen was overpowered and it was a much needed nerf.

 

I sent a pull request for kitchensink to add this code. However, it'd need to be discussed among whoever makes decisions if this is something we want done before its enabled.