Changes on Survival: Part 2!

[TornadoHorse]

Righto, so there was some good feedback from that poll that was posted (thanks!) and now that we've established what the main problems are, we need to find out how we're going to solve them.

 

As expected, lag had the most votes and is the main problem. There's been a bit of lag around for ages, but I think just recently it has been far worse. I'm no fountain of knowledge, so I don't know what could help this right now, but I'm fairly certain that if there were to be a donation drive (to help raise funds towards better server hosting) then that could help towards stopping the lag which so many are experiencing across all servers.

 

The second most voted for was advertising. There are already some good steps being taken towards this, with the new server promo video, but that won't bring in enough players alone. If people would be willing to, I think that there could be some good PvP montages made by the community. So if you have any recordings of PvP, then maybe we could arrange something to make it into a neat video of some of the best fights on this server? There will need to be other means of advertising apart from videos, but this is a good start.

 

Staff and moderation was voted pretty highly too. When I put this option in, I was thinking about having Survival staff to know what they're looking for when someone is accused of PvP hacks, whether it's aimbot, radar etc. There was quite a bit of drama with PvP this revision and accusations, and I feel that if the staff knew exactly what they were looking for, then it could have been stopped early on. I think it would also help if more of the staff went PvPing more often. They'd probably experience the hacking instead of just watching it, so that they know who to look out for. As an additional note, I think staff should be trusted more. There have been several occasions where a mod has seen someone log in combat, for example, but only been allowed to add a note.

 

I think the rules need to be updated too. There are a few that need to be made clearer, especially the 'Don't be a dick' and doxing rules. I think they are the two that I have seen be misunderstood be players, and if they were remade, then some of the unnecessary drama would be stopped.

 

Clans and enchantments were the two that had fewest votes. Despite this, I think that some changes here could be good. There has been an idea passed around to have a cap on protection on armour. The highest protection would be II, and swords, bows and potions (and anything else that directly effects PvP) would be nerfed accordingly. I think this could work really nicely for many reasons. Gear would be easier to get, it would level the playing field allowing anyone to PvP for little cost. You're not risking too much, which is what many people are afraid of. You can regain your lost items relatively easily and you won't have to spend hours re-enchanting at the highest level.

 

 

That's just my overview of what should change. If you could follow to format below (just for ease of comparing results) that would be wicked! :D

 

1) What do you want to see changed about the lag, and how should we go about it?

2) What steps do you want to take to advertise the servers?

3) What do you think should be changed with staff and moderation, and how do you think we should go about it?

4) What rules would do you think should be changed, added or removed? Why?

5) Is there anything you want to change about clans? Why?

6) Is there anything you want to change about enchantments? Why?

 

Any additional notes are welcome! But yeah, discuss! 

Thanks a lot, TornadoHorse :)

 

 

[N00ble_6]

Absolutely fantastic to see players taking some initiative and starting to figure out what we need to fix, especially in such a mature and helpful way :>>>>>

 

Anyways. Discussion. Points. Yesyesyesyes.

1: Fix it. Get rid of it. No lag. I, myself, never lag on the nerd servers, unless it's client side or the box is experiencing problems. But it's enough to start driving players away, which is really not what nerd needs. 

2: While it's fantastic that we've started expanding our horizons with the video and whatnot, it's really not going to be enough if we want to bring in more players. I doubt nerd will ever take the steps to 'properly' advertise (by say, paying for it) but that may be necessary at some point. Maybe even moving away from vanilla at some point. 

3: More staff would be nice, especially for S, which is rather understaffed at times, but that's really not a pressing issue. 

4: I think the 'don't be a dick' rule works fine for what it is. A catch-all in order to stop problematic behaviour that doesn't break any of the other rules. While it would be nice to define it a bit more, it does what it's intended to. It'd be fantastic if the doxxing rule could be rewritten. Someone could dox another play by say, using their real name in chat. That person technically hasn't broken any rules, until the person who was doxxed tells them to stop. By then the damage has already sorta been done? In order to avoid the mixup in the first place, you'd have to message someone like "hey this is my real name/alt account/whatever, please don't tell anyone or use that against me".

5: I've already expressed my opinions on the mixing of clans. While it could be interesting, I can't see S adapting to it anytime soon. 

6: Once again, I'd be keen for the downgrade when it comes to enchants, but I can't see S warming up to it.

 

Wow, look at what you've done Tornado, you've made me type out all this discussion and shit wow.

 

Wow. 

[AC130]

About enchants, removing enchants increases the amount of zerg, and IMO shouldn't happen. However, limiting the enchants to a flat prot 2/sharp 3/ power 3. Would allow players to more easily get gear while still make zerging not as effective. Also make it so splash health potions only available for splash 1, and make health 2's only drinkable.

(i'll add more when i'm at home cus this wifi at my school is buns)

[luke_gardner]

The server does not need gameplay changes, it needs consistently higher numbers - roughly equal to P - to flourish. We've thrown everything at this server and seen what's stuck and, basically, no feature we add has a direct impact on bringing people in. Major changes bring resentment and argument, minor changes get fought over tooth-and-nail at every turn and doing nothing leads to more berating for being "lazy".

 

I remain unconvinced that a "PvE server that happens to have PvP enabled everywhere" is really a good idea. This game has too many working parts, takes too much time and requires too much grinding for such short and unsatisfying fights. PvP is a dick-wagging competition, not an interesting component of the game. Without improving the actual fights (something we can't do) we can only change the things that lead up to fights, and that doesn't really get at the real problem.

 

Things are out of balance. Unless you can get and retain new players each revision, the server increasingly becomes a small server for a small group of people who are mostly friends. Minecraft is not the new kid on the block and we are not a unique server.

 

As erisian wisely told me months ago: the size of this server does not even remotely justify the hand-wringing and drama that accompanies it.

[uni0]

I remain unconvinced that a "PvE server that happens to have PvP enabled everywhere" is really a good idea. This game has too many working parts, takes too much time and requires too much grinding for such short and unsatisfying fights. PvP is a dick-wagging competition, not an interesting component of the game. Without improving the actual fights (something we can't do) we can only change the things that lead up to fights, and that doesn't really get at the real problem.

 

Things are out of balance. Unless you can get and retain new players each revision, the server increasingly becomes a small server for a small group of people who are mostly friends. Minecraft is not the new kid on the block and we are not a unique server.

 

As erisian wisely told me months ago: the size of this server does not even remotely justify the hand-wringing and drama that accompanies it.

 

I agree there are fundamental problems with the platform, I've seen the same problems over and over again. Just to add to what you mentioned, I'd add that the current platform does not motivate fair honor combat (ie armored vs armored) nor does it motivate cool "pve" building, in fact it's despised. It promotes dickish gameplay, spree killing, meaningless animal killing, chest looting, jamming cool redstone circuitry on purpose, uneven matches, base camping, getting people in trouble etc.

 

All this dickish gameplay provides some temporary fun but it quickly ends because the victims don't stick around enough for this to continue.

 

As long as this platform continues as it is, I don't see much changing, even with more numbers, people won't stick around because there isn't a solid core gameplay.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is, but blindly defending a vanilla platform as we seem to keep on doing doesn't seem the solution to me. We should study other servers and not be afraid to do something drastically different if needed.

 

On a personal note, I feel like I'm one of the last 'veterans' that's trying to stick around, but as time passes there seems to be less reasons to stay around; we keep on having the same politics, the same unresolved issues, the same resistance to change.

[luke_gardner]

You can't fix a broken game with sheer willpower, uni0. I spent a lot of time trying.

 

Back on topic - there are things that could be done to improve the server but almost all of them have dissatisfying downsides.

 

We still haven't hashed out what S really is. Is it a PvP server? A war-games server? Do we want players to interact with each other, or the landscape? Do we really need a centralized spawn? Do we really need locked chests and no-griefing rules? What, exactly, are we aiming for? Right now the server is just a competition to see who can cause grief without actually griefing. What sort of audience does that draw?

 

The way things are going - I'd rather just play a real PvP game. That way I don't have to devote hours to getting established just to have incredibly boring fights with really obnoxious clans.

 

Even with setting the maps up to make players do things certain ways or adding this or that plugin, there's only so much the admins and mods can do to shield the server from bad players and bad behavior that don't break rules but clearly disrupt things (which is, in my perspective, a huge part of why the server is fucked right now). When the game comes down to who can be the biggest dickweed of all the game eats itself.

[Austo43]

Bring back the major communities of Survival! Promote people to team up with other people and build like mini cities or something. Have the larger more mature clans that dominate try to promote the people they attack to team up with people to challenge them! Enchantments in my opinion should be removed, it causes a un-balance in PvP.

[TornadoHorse]

Although what you say is true, Luke, there are always way to make it better. Minecraft isn't a game for designed for PvP, but people enjoy it anyway. And there are some things that haven't been tried yet. Realistically, we'll never have the presence that we once had, nor will we have the amount of players that we did in the earlier revisions of Survival. You raise some very good points about not really having a specific aim of what we want to be, and I think that really needs to be figured out for any real progress to be made. 

 

 We should study other servers and not be afraid to do something drastically different if needed.

 

This is going to have to happen eventually if we want the Survival server to stay. We shouldn't jump straight in and become, for example, a factions server, but I think we need to start pulling away from vanilla minecraft.

[cmdrtebok]

As a very long time s player on more alt accounts than I can remember I agree with Luke. Also I think vanilla pvp is kind of stale. I do not think a pve server with pvp areas will help which is by far the most common suggestion when these kind of talks happen on the subreddit and I am tired if hearing it. Thanks for leaving it out.

I think we should go for a revision with the factions plugin. We don't have to commit to anything for all time. Just a 2 or 3 month trial and see how it goes.

[Hai2joo]

You can't fix a broken game with sheer willpower, uni0. I spent a lot of time trying.

 

Back on topic - there are things that could be done to improve the server but almost all of them have dissatisfying downsides.

 

We still haven't hashed out what S really is. Is it a PvP server? A war-games server? Do we want players to interact with each other, or the landscape? Do we really need a centralized spawn? Do we really need locked chests and no-griefing rules? What, exactly, are we aiming for? Right now the server is just a competition to see who can cause grief without actually griefing. What sort of audience does that draw?

 

The way things are going - I'd rather just play a real PvP game. That way I don't have to devote hours to getting established just to have incredibly boring fights with really obnoxious clans.

 

Even with setting the maps up to make players do things certain ways or adding this or that plugin, there's only so much the admins and mods can do to shield the server from bad players and bad behavior that don't break rules but clearly disrupt things (which is, in my perspective, a huge part of why the server is fucked right now). When the game comes down to who can be the biggest dickweed of all the game eats itself.

 

You guys could just replace S with X and see how that goes.

[Rcub3161]

I agree with tebok we should try a factions plugin or at the least make there a reason for people to not die. If there is a reason to not die then people will armor up more often. Also Maybe disabling end chests to force people to actually move their valuables again?

[Jauris]

Good luck getting a factions server to run, the damn servers can barely handle what we have already. I can't image the lag we'd get if we changed.

 

I agree with tebok we should try a factions plugin or at the least make there a reason for people to not die. If there is a reason to not die then people will armor up more often. Also Maybe disabling end chests to force people to actually move their valuables again?

[cmdrtebok]

Well with the factions plugin some of our other plugins that cause lag might be disabled. We are also going to be having a donation drive soon and the lag is an issue we definitely plan on addressing.

[graymansnel]

Don't be a dick needs to be enforced... Harshly. Especially if we are going to advertise.

 

I like the enchanting rules,, But at the same time, hate it

Maybe if we nerfed it so that Prot 2 is the highest you could go, but in the area you could win maybe Prot 3 and like a monthly arena for Prot 4.

 

Pots are fine. A lot of people don't use them for non serious fights.

 

Camping is a big fucking issue, There tons of new people on, but when they ask for help, everyone tries, but they end up getting spawn camped anyway. (the only reason i ever made it to a plot is that i knew people, and they helped me.)

 

Thats my 2 cents.

 

Go buy a Cookie.

 

(or anything from Gold Road Shop.)

[unce]

Don't be a dick needs to be enforced... Harshly. Especially if we are going to advertise.

I disagree. The rule exists only for "special circumstances." A rule as vague as DBAD shouldn't be something that is tossed around on a daily basis.

 

Camping is a big fucking issue, There tons of new people on, but when they ask for help, everyone tries, but they end up getting spawn camped anyway. (the only reason i ever made it to a plot is that i knew people, and they helped me.)

 

This has already been addressed, camping the spawn point is against the rules.

  Edited June 2, 2013 by unce

[IDNAUB]

There has been an idea passed around to have a cap on protection on armour. The highest protection would be II, and swords, bows and potions (and anything else that directly effects PvP) would be nerfed accordingly. I think this could work really nicely for many reasons. Gear would be easier to get, it would level the playing field allowing anyone to PvP for little cost. You're not risking too much, which is what many people are afraid of. You can regain your lost items relatively easily and you won't have to spend hours re-enchanting at the highest level.

 

 

I think this deserves its own post.

[whiteturbo]

1) What do you want to see changed about the lag, and how should we go about it?

2) What steps do you want to take to advertise the servers?

3) What do you think should be changed with staff and moderation, and how do you think we should go about it?

More admins, more mods.

4) What rules would do you think should be changed, added or removed? Why?

Explained rules better, I honestly didn't know what homophobia and doxing mean.

5) Is there anything you want to change about clans? Why?

Limit the amount of players in a clan to avoid unfair fights.

6) Is there anything you want to change about enchantments? Why?

No, I like enchants as they are. Going out in good armor should be a risk. Also, heads? thought about that? Would be really easy to get heads.

 

[djt832]

1) What do you want to see changed about the lag, and how should we go about it?

 

I'd like the lag to go away. I've seen a large increase in it, and nothing has changed on my end. As far as how we should go about it? No idea, I don't have much experience with that sort of thing. I would be happy to take part in a donation drive if necessary though.

 

2) What steps do you want to take to advertise the servers?

 

I think the youtube video's are a great idea. I wish we could get some more recognition on r/minecraft, but that seems to not be an option. I'm sure there are other ways to advertise for free.

 

3) What do you think should be changed with staff and moderation, and how do you think we should go about it?

 

All the staff I have been in contact with have been helpful and respectful. It would be nice to increase the staffing on S, as the last moderation vote seemed to be all PVE players.

 

4) What rules would do you think should be changed, added or removed? Why?

 

Im not extensively familiar with the rules, so I don't have any problem with them how they stand. The don't be a dick rule seems to be an ongoing issue, but it has its uses.

 

5) Is there anything you want to change about clans? Why?

 

When I joined S their were a lot more active clans. I'm not sure how we can achieve that again. I saw the post about mixing clans up, and while that might be a good idea, I think some players would not be able to trust new clanmates.

 

6) Is there anything you want to change about enchantments? Why?

 

I like the idea of limiting enchants. If we could find a nice middle ground between no enchants and full enchants, I think we might be able to retain more players. This will also allow for a faster style of gameplay.

[Tharine]

Figured i'd finally get around to commenting on this myself :P

 

1) What do you want to see changed about the lag, and how should we go about it?

From what i've gathered, our more recent issues seem to be on our server host's end. I believe there's been talk of this suggestion from a number of people, but heavy consideration of improving things at that level would probably go a long way. The content on the servers themselves aren't a major issue, and we've changed some plugin configuration(s) to better account for the involvement of lag recently, so things like dying from spawn as a result of lag should no longer be an issue.

 

2) What steps do you want to take to advertise the servers?

Funded steps are probably the ones we need to take to effect real change. YouTube videos are a great way to represent our community, but they get very little traction if you simply upload them and post them to only our own forums/subreddits. Branching out and putting those videos in places that will be seen by many outside our community would be a lot better, in my opinion. Still, funded advertising is how the major servers get the most hits but it's quite expensive from what i've heard, so that's a major concern. I don't have any clue what kind of expenses we have available for this sort of thing, so I can't assess whether or not this would be profitable to do just now.

 

3) What do you think should be changed with staff and moderation, and how do you think we should go about it?

More active moderation is probably the key to providing better moderation all around. I've found from just keeping a bit of an eye on how the ModReq queue that they tend to get handled in 'chunks' rather than in any kind of smooth continuum. Moderators shouldn't be expected to drop what they're doing and answer a modreq the moment it comes in (certainly, i'd like to discourage that, you're here to play too!), but i've seen more often than i'm comfortable with that typically one moderator will run through 20 modreqs on their own, simply because they've been left in the queue for so long without any attention. This applies to the more immediate moderation too, such as spawn camping and accusations of hacking. I've had a few players come to me recently to express that they haven't been able to contact moderators for this sort of thing as there were none available, but these are at times when i'm not awake/active, so I can't speak for how much of an issue this is. I know particular players have expressed a want to see more moderators well versed in handling particular issues (such as identifying PvP hacks), and it's on my to-do list to get some additions going to the moderator guidelines of this sort.

 

4) What rules would do you think should be changed, added or removed? Why?

The don't be a dick rule, for sure. I pretty much refuse to moderate based on that rule because it is so open to any kind of interpretation, and it's there as a safety net for incidents that crop up that don't follow our set rules. I appreciate it's existence to an extent because of the latter, but I don't like to enforce it. Both draykhar and I have expressed (draykhar particularly :P) an interest in updating the ruleset for Survival in particular, and I think we're going to try and get the ball rolling on that sometime soon. 

 

5) Is there anything you want to change about clans? Why?

Have no particular opinion on clans, myself. I'd love to see more clan warfare/whole clan battles happen, as those are some of the best to be involved in or even just to watch. We actually have a remarkable number of clans on the server, but unfortunately most of them are not particularly active for this to happen. I'd love to see clans play a greater role in the server's community structure, even if just for nostalgic reasons :P

 

6) Is there anything you want to change about enchantments? Why?

I have no strong opinions on enchantments, personally speaking. I think my greatest frustration is trying to get the right enchant and not the same one each time (Thorns II, anyone?), rather than the grind to get things. I'm someone who doesn't get an awful lot of time to dedicate to playing nowadays, and i've managed to get enough gear (mostly iron, couple of diamond sets) to last me what time I have available left of this revision. I still have a few stacks of diamond spare (I enjoy mining), so it's only the time spent getting the right enchants that are the major hurdle for me. I understand everyone's situation is different though, so looking into options that could accommodate most everyone would be good.

 

I'm keeping an eye on this thread as a staff member, but I don't want to interject and say 'yes' or 'no' to ideas people have at this stage. Let's keep discussion going and see what ideas we can come up with as solutions to our problems 

[teddylover]

Probably the only time that S has a lot of people is Survival Arena League nights.

[teddylover]

What about bringing a trial spleef season and all players must belong to a clan that will play?

[TheRandomnatrix]

I have a few things I want to address:

Plumping ores: I've personally never understood why S does not have plumped ores like diamonds. The only argument I've heard against this from bringing it up is that clans would stockpile armor and tools, which imo they already do anyways. I hear the complaint that it's always the people in dia armor running around killing all the underarmed people, making them want to quit. So why not make it easier to get said equipment? Hell, P gets plumped ores and we don't even need it as bad as S does. Grinding is such a chore to the point that xp is plumped and /unenchant exists, but nothing is done about the biggest grind in minecraft: mining. Is there a specific reason I haven't heard to why this is?

Changing the Survival with PvP thrown in mentality?: There's already some discussion to deviate to less than vanilla gameplay above, but at the core, S is currently "survive in the wilderness with the occasional random PvP event". I think that notion of what S is could stand to change.

Advertising: As it stands, in recent times we have been trying to address this problem. With a donation drive planned for the future, hopefully we can raise some more money to where paid advertising could be considered an option. As for right now, minecraft is a game that's spread from friend to friend through word of mouth. I'd encourage people to talk to their friends about the nerd servers.

Enchantments and Potions The general complaint I always hear and I'm sure everyone else has too, is that the adventure update broke PvP. From my understanding, This problem was addressed a few revs ago by removing enchants to everything but bows. A complaint in recent times was that this would have worked if enchants on bows had also been removed. As for potions, I really don't see an issue with them currently. Invisibility was a problem, but with the recent plugin to disable it upon pvp, I feel that's been dealt with.

Polling: Lastly, at least for now, is that we could easily make an official poll on the common topics if it has to come to that. I've noted C is already doing that to some degree.