[PMC] Alt accounts

[WayneByNumbers]

Per this thread, our current policy of banning accounts permanently for alt evasion has historically had a spotty enforcement and has apparently lost much popular support.  The issue was raised by barneygale, who obviously has some alts banned under this policy, bans he recently appealed and had denied.  The rules have not yet changed and his appeals kind of jumped the gun, but most participants in the thread seem to agree that that rule should be altered.
 
Dumbo52 had some suggestions in that thread that would replace the permaban practice that seemed popular.
 

My proposal is that if a banned player is caught alting, the new unban date will be set to the latest of either:
A) Two weeks after the previously declared unban date; or
B) The addition of the previous ban length to the time of the most recent evasion.

For example, if I were banned for one month for x-raying (we'll say 4 weeks for simplicity) and I evaded one week into my original ban, two weeks would be added to my ban, pushing the unban date to 6 weeks after my original ban. On the other hand, if I were to evade my ban 5 weeks into my original ban, the new unban date would be set to 4 weeks after this ban evasion, or 9 weeks after the original ban. When my unban date is reached, both my main and alt accounts would then be unbanned.

This method of banning would ensure that at least two weeks are added to the ban for each evasion. This length can, of course, be changed depending on how severe an offense we consider ban evasion to be, but I think the basic model is sound.

There is also the bridge we would need to cross between compromised accounts and ban evasion: where do we draw the line? It's not infrequent that we have griefers on Creative who repeatedly log in from other accounts as soon as they are banned, but from my experience, very few of these players tend to appeal their bans. If a player with 20+ banned alts were to appeal, we can't necessarily unban all of these accounts, as they are more than likely compromised. If this situation does arise, I recommend we just unban the main account after the given ban length (the main account being the one which was first used to log onto our servers), and keep the rest banned as compromised accounts. In most cases, it isn't difficult to tell whether a player is using legitimate alternate accounts, anyway.

This sounds pretty good to me, but the rules don't change until they change.  Figured I'd throw this into the staff chat to help speed that process.

[djt832]

I think that would work alright. I mean, we are banning the player and not the account. Hence why alt accounts are immediately banned and disallowed. So after we have unbanned the player, why is there a point in keeping the alt accounts banned? The player is already back on the servers and I don't see why it matters what account that player is using. However, since alts are generally used for ban evasion, I think it is just to add on extra time until those accounts will be unbanned. 

[MasterCommaThe]

To simplify and streamline Dumbo's process I propose that alt evasion should simply double the ban length and restart the time for the ban's effect on all accounts. If a player is using an alt to evade a ban, that ban has effectively not been served until they stop playing on our servers. Compared to permabanning the alt, this is lenient.

All accounts would be unbanned at the same time. Given the nature of difficulty in tracking most player's alts by mods, I propose that in any of these cases notes should be added to alt evading players accounts.

[Magnyus]

The problem with these ban extensions is that it's only going to make players evade even more, all they care about is getting back to playing as soon as they can. That's what ban evasion is. Ban extensions should be saved for the more malicious players that hack, xray, or harass other players. Not the ones that did something stupid and bypassed the system to play their game.

 

You can't stop players from using alts to evade. It's not going to happen.

[Trooprm32]

The problem with these ban extensions is that it's only going to make players evade even more, all they care about is getting back to playing as soon as they can. That's what ban evasion is. Ban extensions should be saved for the more malicious players that hack, xray, or harass other players. Not the ones that did something stupid and bypassed the system to play their game.

 

You can't stop players from using alts to evade. It's not going to happen.

 

I disagree entirely. If we aren't going to extend bans by people who constantly break the rules, then whats the point in banning at all?

 

Also we CAN stop people from using alts to evade, and we have in the past. Unless they're using a legion of compromised accounts... they eventually get caught.

[Dumbo52]

To simplify and streamline Dumbo's process I propose that alt evasion should simply double the ban length and restart the time for the ban's effect on all accounts. If a player is using an alt to evade a ban, that ban has effectively not been served until they stop playing on our servers. Compared to permabanning the alt, this is lenient.

All accounts would be unbanned at the same time. Given the nature of difficulty in tracking most player's alts by mods, I propose that in any of these cases notes should be added to alt evading players accounts.

 

While I'm not particularly opposed to resetting the ban length after each evasion, I'm a little worried about using an exponential model like this. The problem is that they don't appreciably increase the ban length for relatively short bans, but in particular when a player evades using several accounts, the ban length can become unwieldy and hardly separable from a permanent ban.

 

For example, consider a scenario in which a player gets themselves banned for a day. If they evade at some point during their ban, then one more day is added to their ban length. I find this a little too lenient; if people are going to continue breaking our rules even after they've been banned, it seems like we'd be letting them off the hook. This model also brings up the question of how we would deal with bans for which a ban period wasn't announced; if a player is just told to read the rules and reply to be unbanned and we discover afterward that they've logged in with an alt account, how would their unban date be altered?

 

Assuming I've interpreted your proposal correctly, I think the exponential model also grows too quickly after subsequent evasions. In the case that a player gets banned for a month, they're looking at over two and a half years for 5 evasions, or upwards of 21 years for 8 - and this is under the assumption that they evaded on all of their accounts at the same time, immediately after the ban. That seems pretty permanent to me in the scope of a Minecraft ban, and I think most people can agree it's possible for anyone to mature over a long enough time span. Give players a window of opportunity, and they're much more likely to strive toward it.

 

 

As a side note, I'm going to see if we can get a finalized policy on this agreed upon and published sooner rather than later.

[Trooprm32]

I think the idea of having a reset + 2 weeks would be the best route; It isn't too lenient, and it also isn't unreasonable like the exponential model.

 

For example, someone evades an xray ban 1 week in; they and their alt account would reset the initial month, and be banned for a month + 2 weeks. After the time expires... both accounts will be unbanned.

[WayneByNumbers]

In the case that a player gets banned for a month, they're looking at over two and a half years for 5 evasions, or upwards of 21 years for 8

"Please reply to this thread no earlier than Nov. 1, 2025 to be unbanned."

[TornadoHorse]

"Please reply to this thread no earlier than Nov. 1, 2025 to be unbanned."

 

:/

[XkinOEC]

This has turned from a post about alt accounts being banned to how long we ban people for using alts. Why don't we just set a 1 month ban for any and all alternative accounts to a player, this will give us time to process if they are going to be a constructive member of the community again, and not leave us with rediculous ban lengths... Do we really think minecraft as we know it will remain exactly as is by 2025? Let's face the facts we know since 2012, many people got banned by people who no longer visit the servers, perhaps they did something more or less serious than someone were permabanning... We don't know when the banning moderator or admin or head admin is no longer around, and this is only a 2 year timespan. And nor will the staff of nerd.nu in 2025... Leaving our server to hold an endless grudge on their other accounts... A ban length of 11 years is rediculous.

[WayneByNumbers]

This has turned from a post about alt accounts being banned to how long we ban people for using alts. Why don't we just set a 1 month ban for any and all alternative accounts to a player, this will give us time to process if they are going to be a constructive member of the community again, and not leave us with rediculous ban lengths... Do we really think minecraft as we know it will remain exactly as is by 2025? Let's face the facts we know since 2012, many people got banned by people who no longer visit the servers, perhaps they did something more or less serious than someone were permabanning... We don't know when the banning moderator or admin or head admin is no longer around, and this is only a 2 year timespan. And nor will the staff of nerd.nu in 2025... Leaving our server to hold an endless grudge on their other accounts... A ban length of 11 years is rediculous.

 

That whole 2025 thing was a joke... Dumbo was pretty clear that he didn't like the exponential "doubling every time" idea.  I don't see what's so complicated about the idea of a ban length either resetting or adding 2 weeks minimum (if the ban length being reset was too short) in the event of an alt evasion.

[MasterCommaThe]

I think we could simply go for a 1-time doubling/additive extension to the ban, no matter how many alts are used. The total ban length would begin following the most recent alt's incursion.

[TornadoHorse]

That whole 2025 thing was a joke... Dumbo was pretty clear that he didn't like the exponential "doubling every time" idea.  I don't see what's so complicated about the idea of a ban length either resetting or adding 2 weeks minimum (if the ban length being reset was too short) in the event of an alt evasion.

 

I think we could simply go for a 1-time doubling/additive extension to the ban, no matter how many alts are used. The total ban length would begin following the most recent alt's incursion.

 

I think Wayne's suggestion is fair. A simple mistake would only lead to an addition 2 weeks, whereas with the doubling method, a simple mistake could lead to an extra 6 months. It's the difference between there being a chance of a player coming back and there unban date being longer than nerd's lifetime.

 

On another note, I think it was foolish to get rid of 'permanent' bans. Now that we've started giving a number for every unban date, it seems that there's more players not coming back.

[Mumberthrax]

I'd like to note that this topic is being discussed carefully by all the admins, and a resolution should be arrived at in short order.

[Mrloud15]

Closing and moving to the archives.