Poll - Smelting armor for ingots.

[tobylane]

What happened to vanilla?

 

We started off by just removing the parts of the game that caused lag or grief. Then we tried out Civ-something on survival and found that it wasn't for us. Then we started recreating the same kind of thing on P (overstating it - don't take it seriously).

 

If, and I don't think it should be above questioning, we're keeping the horse plugin and the thirst for gold it makes but we can't have portal farms is this a case for having zombie pigmen spawners bought for several stacks of obsidian? This would be an example of how some vanilla feature was outright banned for good reasons but now we have better adaptive options.

[dnynumberone]

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Edited December 17, 2016 by dnynumberone

[totemo]

What happened to vanilla?

 

We have not had vanilla terrain in years. We don't have vanilla ore distribution. I can't remember a rev when we did and I have played all but one. We have a bunch of custom spawners for mobs that don't have vanilla dungeons. Our nether is cray cray.

 

But you can access it all with a vanilla client and nothing is super complicated or super different. It's not a whole different game like CivCraft.

 

 

the ability to obtain enough gold through other means (ie. smelting equipment, not fighting pigmen or constructing a grinder or mining) feels like a devaluing of the other (especially non-mining) methods

 

But you get more gold fighting pigmen now, so it's not devaluing that. Mining in the mesa is still faster for bulk gold. And I guarantee that when these recipes are enabled, every gold armour chest in every grinder will be emptied. One Pican made off with two thirds of the smeltable armour in Pico grinder chests the minute this poll went up. There will be a momentary blip in the gold economy as old stockpiles are liquidated, and then a small change in player behaviour as they factor their need for gold into choice of XP grinder to use and weigh up how they want to achieve their goals. I don't expect many players will subsequently opt to kill 57,600 skeletons for their armour to get 2 stacks of gold blocks, but there's always one.

 

 

being able to obtain extra gold ... killing pigmen is always welcome - but it feels to me a bit cheap ... the benefits from it are too high

 

That's a vote to nerf the amount of material salvaged from smelting down swords. That is certainly something that can be considered.

 

 

The second reason is an observation of mismatch between stated goals of the server and the possibilities smelting (iron) equipment will open up ... but having gameplay features that both makes resource acquisition harder and easier feels weird

 

I'm going to take this as an admonishment to be consistent and a reiteration of the opinion that smelting gear is too lucrative. There are some shut-ins who are viscerally opposed to leaving the house to go mining who will do a whole lot of clicking on villagers. A lot of clicking, to turn their sugarcane into iron. Good luck to them. The smelting thing has added a whole new dimension to the game for them. At least they are not standing around AFK.

 

It is hard to balance things where villagers are involved because they are ridiculously OP. A few days into the rev you can get whatever book you want from villagers and cheap diamond chestplates. That is the broken game balance that Mojang have given us. That is vanilla. In comparison to that, I do think that balancing gold smelting is a comparatively minor concern.

 

Just from the voting response it's clear that people want to get some value from armour/weapon mob drops. It scratches the right itch. When I unpack buzzie's concerns they keep coming back to game balance. Is it worth having further discussion on the rate of return? Or should we simply run it as a test this rev and nerf it next rev if it is too much? I have provided enough statistics in my comments for people to calculate exactly how much time would be required to get gold by various means. Do we need further consideration of that one guy who will tape down the left mouse button and park himself in a zombie grinder for five days to get gold? Or do we write that off as equivalent to a vanilla gold grinder?

[totemo]

3) Now, because of those two previous changes, there's a "terrible" imbalance in the server for leveling horses.  And, now, we're debating (and apparently seriously considering)...a fundamental aspect of vanilla being changed.  

 

You keep saying that as if this is the first time that people have ever wanted to smelt down armour. (Hint: that desire has been expressed by some players for years.) You keep saying it like smelting armour will be incredibly lucrative. (Hint: it will be a small percentage bump.) And you keep saying that as if the reason people play Minecraft is so that they can get armour drops that they immediately throw in lava... like that's the attraction.

 

And finally, worst of all, you keep talking like vanilla Minecraft was handed down by God himself. We're trying to make an entertaining game, despite what Mojang does to it. And we have limited hardware and neverending lag problems.

 

I think you're getting carried away by the emotion of it. But by all means, go play on your vanilla terrain map with your 100% no mods vanilla client in the default texture pack if that's what entertains you.

[dnynumberone]

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Edited December 17, 2016 by dnynumberone

[Tharine]

What happened to vanilla?

 

Aye we've not been a "vanilla" PvE server since probably right near the start. We were like vanilla with a hint of strawberry, and now we're probably more neapolitan (big fan of this food imagery). If you look back on the last couple of years you can see the word vanilla stops being included in server posts/advertisements quite so much, but I think there's been a lot of confusion caused by the fact that the term refers to both style of gameplay and the type of client (vanilla or modded) you need to connect to a server. This is also why you might see people vehemently insist that we are still vanilla, they're almost always referring to the client connection.

 

I voted yes to the poll. I am beginning to find this whole "we removed that crazy lucrative source of iron, but also here's a new source of obtaining iron too (instead?)" conversation a bit confusing as a casual player. It seems the solution should've been to nerf the iron golem spawners rather than remove and then add a different method - but that's assuming that this new idea is to remedy the outcome of removing the golem spawners? Is this the case?

 

If this smelting down items idea is completely separate of the whole iron golem thing, I think this is just very unfortunate timing for introducing the idea because a lot of people are going to want to take that into consideration. I think it's a neat idea - ignoring everything else, it's one of those changes that isn't blindingly difficult for new players to grasp and I like that it adds a benefit to solo players that at the same time doesn't bring a huge bonus to townsfolk.

[buzzie71]

But you get more gold fighting pigmen now, so it's not devaluing that. Mining in the mesa is still faster for bulk gold.

To me it's less about the value of gold in the economy or how much can be obtained from smelting equipment, and more the value(?) of the path to obtain (not-mined) gold.  I don't really feel the numbers proposed are too high in a balance sense (you've proven sufficiently that the most gain goes to zombie pigmen hunters and is still rather modest, which would indeed still promote it as a method of obtaining gold).

 

I feel that building a grinder or fighting pigmen both require more preparation, effort, and/or problem-solving to engineer a setup (or just fight well enough) that gold can be extracted from safely.  Smelting equipment for the same resource is, comparatively, easier (thus why I said figuratively cheaper), but you're right that with the proposed numbers, it would be rather time-consuming and difficult to extract a good amount of gold from a grinder setup other than killing zombie pigmen.  

 

Like I said, as someone who has been grinding pigmen since near the start of the rev (even before assembling a full set of Prot armor) this was the more personal reason - my pride was probably showing here and I'll get over it.

 

To reiterate on the second point - I agree that it would be difficult to change gameplay drastically from smelting gold equipment, but the path to iron ingots from smelting iron equipment to me feels weird when juxtaposed with the iron golem spawner distribution (I am projecting that smelting iron equipment would be lucrative enough as an alternative to mining...gold potentially, but since it is possible to feasibly obtain it by means other than mining, like killing zombie pigmen, it doesn't feel weird).  

 

The goal of the iron spawner distributions was stated publicly to be to lengthen the tech tree (presumably by restricting the supply of iron).  Being able to smelt villager products into iron, assuming there is a well-established support base to mass-produce iron this way, would allow for an inflation of the iron supply and an alternative feasible method of obtaining iron, undermining that goal.  I'm assuming (correctly? wrongly?) that such a setup to smelt iron equipment from villagers easily could be made possible eventually during the rev, if not now.

 

As a player who seeks to maximize resource gain per unit time and didn't like the spawner distribution this rev, I would gladly embrace that change - but I guess I see this more as a philosophy question outside the scope of this plugin, and not really directed at it (sorry if it seemed that way) - what is the intended dynamic of iron in this rev?  Is the goal to eliminate free-flowing iron (aside from mining) from the game?  Delay it for towards the end of the rev?  Levy an additional resource cost on iron farming on top of time?  Eliminate some of the AFK component of iron farming?  (I'm not intending to knock on any of those as bad answers, just seeking something that is consistent.  I know this is starting to move beyond the scope of this thread and might be irrelevant in this one.) 

Edited December 15, 2016 by buzzie71

[Flumper]

http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/1.11.1

 

Furnaces

• Metal tools and armor can be melted down into nuggets
• Changed the burn time of some items

[totemo]

what is the intended dynamic of iron in this rev?

 

As I understand it:

1. That it preferably should not be free in enormous quantities, because that kills a lot of the game for new players.
2. That it should be obtained through active play time in order to draw out the usefulness of the revision. AFKing for enormous quantities of iron does not qualify.

My understanding of the motivations are:

• It takes a lot of effort to set up spawn and make the fancy maps that everyone enjoys. We want the revs to last a while to maximise the value we get out of that staff effort.
• We seem to have settled on roughly 5 month revisions. This is in part due to the previous point, and in part because we have a significant number of players who have expressed their desire for that duration in order to accomplish their goals.
• Through long observation of player counts we know that they decay exponentially from a peak at the start of the rev. There are a large number of players who only play the first day, the first week or the first month and then are gone.
• The rev rolls on and new players come, see 9 people online (as someone did in the small hours last night) and leave 30 seconds later. It is our belief that players are more likely to stay to play if there are more people online.
• We have a lot of potential new players that don't get past that first impression. That is, our player retention problem comes from network effects: having a lot of players drives more players to us; having few players makes it harder for new players to find us, or to find interest in us.
• It is my personal belief that people will stay past that initial contact for unique features that "sound interesting". You have to remember that there are 1000s of Minecraft servers out there. There are plenty that offer exactly what Mojang dishes out because that is the default setting; it is the least effort, least creativity option. I have visited them. They are just like P from 3 years ago and they have 0 players.
• In summary, the iron changes are there to slow things down a little to draw more entertainment value out of the revision (by necessitating more mining or other active resource-gathering behaviours) and in order to drive player number improvements.

[robr]

Well, this is a moot question now based on the latest snapshot. It's coming, the only question at this point is whether we wait until 1.11.1 or do it ourselves first.

That being said, I'd question who is entertained by the current iron generation, I would be hard pressed to name anyone I chat with regularly.

[totemo]

Well, this is a moot question now based on the latest snapshot. It's coming, the only question at this point is whether we wait until 1.11.1 or do it ourselves first.

 

Does make it rather a moot point doesn't it. We are working towards briinging 1.11 in the New Year. If we do roll out the changes for the rather brief interim, then we should set the recipes to match the returns Mojang has set. If that is not possible without iron nuggets then we should drop the iron recipes.

 

 

That being said, I'd question who is entertained by the current iron generation, I would be hard pressed to name anyone I chat with regularly.

 

That implies that nobody likes mining and that your intent is to get it all over and done with as quickly as possible and then leave.

 

Here are 60 players who have mined more than 1300 iron ore each:

 

 

The top 90 miners have all mined more than 900 iron ore each. The top 120 have mined at least 670 each.

[totemo]

With the new snapshot, smelting armour and weapons takes about 8 seconds.

 

Every item, including armour, tools and weapons, and even horse armour smelts down to a single nugget of gold or iron.

 

As it currently stands in the snapshot, a full health item yields exactly the same amount of metal as a durability 1 item. I expect them to change this last point based on community feedback. But at the moment, they don't have the code in their crafting recipes to match a range of durability values with a result, or to express a probabilistic result.

[Tharine]

 

That implies that nobody likes mining and that your intent is to get it all over and done with as quickly as possible and then leave.

 

 

What a hefty conjecture. Do you want to discourage people from providing feedback?

 

I also haven't heard any positive comments towards the current situation (outside of the forum threads) but I do acknowledge that of course people will be happy with it and I just haven't spoken with those people. I really enjoy mining, so I am one of the people not personally affected. Your statistics aren't able to tell us whether or not some of those people had goals to build primarily iron-based builds and, naturally, they have to mine those instead of grinding for them because it's no longer viable. If the option was there, perhaps the numbers would be different.

[totemo]

That being said, I'd question who is entertained by the current iron generation, I would be hard pressed to name anyone I chat with regularly.

 

Robr asserted that people are not entertained. My opinion was that if they are playing the game by caving and mining then that is entertainment. But they have the option of trading with someone else who does enjoy mining iron. Or they can go to one of the slow iron grinders and do nothing to get it, slowly. But I'm not a fan of that mechanic because it is basically just Creative mode plus time delay.

 

 

Your statistics aren't able to tell us whether or not some of those people had goals to build primarily iron-based builds and, naturally, they have to mine those instead of grinding for them because it's no longer viable. If the option was there, perhaps the numbers would be different.

 

You're right, they could be mining because they need to build something completely out of iron. I've built things completely out of iron in the past. I mined the iron to get it. I like caving.

 

Here are the actual stats for placement of iron blocks:

 

 

The biggest nett user of iron blocks is nolanater5711, who has placed 4 beacon bases made out of iron. A similar story applies to Azumarill. The nerf on iron grinders hasn't prevented people from making beacon bases out of iron instead of, say, emerald blocks.

 

We could add in free materials for everything. It wouldn't be a survival mode server any more. Creative mode is instant resource aquisition, no PVP, instabreak, and flying. Last PvE rev was Creative mode for iron, sans the instabreak.

 

I think it was buzzie71 who said that grinders allow him to allocate his time differently. That is true. This is all about game balance, and ultimately everything in survival mode ultimately equates down to time played. My point from a couple of comments back was that I think that slowing down resource acquisition may lead to people playing the game more, which is to the benefit of the server.

[NotActuallyAuree]

To what end are we arguing?  Game balance?  It's hard to argue game balance when I can get a bunch of beacons together and Eff 5 picks, and clear whole chunks out in a less than a minute.  If somebody were so inclined, they could mine the whole mesa in a few weeks.  A town of people could take it to bedrock and clear out all of the gold.  The problem with terrain generated anything is that once it's mined, it's gone.  There's no renewable resources on a size-limited map.  Take, for example, horse armor.  We can't craft it; it only exists as pre-generated loot in chests.  Since there is a finite number of chests, there's a finite number of horse armors, and if somebody collects all of them and tosses them into a lava pool, the rev has no more horse armor period.

 

This is an argument over nothing.  There's several mechanics that limit resources, and this is just a way to gather those same limited resources without having to resort to hoping to find an unmined chunk for hours of mindless mining.

 

As a matter of balance, though, Totemo, I think we might want to follow suit with what Mojang is doing in 1.11 and severely limit the generation of resources from smelting - I had said one ingot as an output in game chat, only because it will become a very broken manner of obtaining iron.  To address my feelings towards buzzie's concerns:  There's a finite amount of things we can do in the game world within the confines of the server's real-world hardware.  If we had a purely vanilla server with only mob-grief turned off, every town would already have hundreds of iron golem spawning pads and thousands upon thousands of villagers.  To limit that, we went to the spawners, but that really wasn't a solution because we're all just too good at Minecraft.  Look at how broken auto-farming has to be, because if not, we would all be swimming be bedrock to skyheight in emeralds.  The spawners were limited to publicly extend the tech tree, but I'm sure there's been some difficult to quantify load taken off of the server because of that limiting.

 

Ultimately, we are severely unbalanced in the middle of the tech tree, but it's still very simple to get to the endgame without much hindrance.  A player can find the 16 necessary diamonds to make the armor they can't buy, buy the enchants necessary to have endgame gear, and then spend a trivial amount of time farming materials to farm the friggin' dragon if they were so inclined.  What's been affected most is rail infrastructure, which is why I was confused in the first place why we were limiting iron since it's such a necessary resource for connecting cities.

Edited December 16, 2016 by NotActuallyAuree

[dnynumberone]

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Edited December 17, 2016 by dnynumberone

[robr]

 

 

Robr asserted that people are not entertained. My opinion was that if they are playing the game by caving and mining then that is entertainment. But they have the option of trading with someone else who does enjoy mining iron. Or they can go to one of the slow iron grinders and do nothing to get it, slowly. But I'm not a fan of that mechanic because it is basically just Creative mode plus time delay.

 

 

we shouldn't be telling people how they should be entertained in a sandbox game that has a set of expected mechanics, nor deriding them for automating tasks so they can focus on other aspects of the game.

[tobylane]

I'm seeing some absurd thinking here. What in this game isn't creative plus time delay? Why is the fun in obtaining to be held as high as using? (for a specific example: beacon bases are now made out of farmed emeralds which a purist like Etho doesn't do) Why is a long tech tree a good thing? How would new players have any idea of our difference to vanilla and it's impact on the tech tree. How does that affect their likelihood to stay? I don't really want these answered just that the reasoning I see relies on a lot of things I'm not seeing, or it relies on being the top iron producer and various reasonable singular opinions from there. We're clearly desperate for a chance to discuss and define how we differ from vanilla, I asked broad questions in a previous thread because it seemed like it was already starting.

[totemo]

We've strayed far off the topic of armour smelting into the iron-grinder game balance debate.

 

I'll speak to the points you've made as briefly as possible.

 

I'm seeing some absurd thinking here. What in this game isn't creative plus time delay? Why is the fun in obtaining to be held as high as using?

 

I reckon I'm seeing some absurd thinking here, tobylane. PvE is not just creative plus time delay. There are hostile mobs to contend with, and exploration, and getting lost in caves, and falling in lava. The E in environment. It's a "vs Environment" server, and that is a major component of the fun. You are thinking that PvE is only about building.

 

And yes, there is automation. And automation has game balance implications.

 

we shouldn't be telling people how they should be entertained in a sandbox game that has a set of expected mechanics, nor deriding them for automating tasks so they can focus on other aspects of the game.

 

It's not a pure sandbox game though is it. A pure sandbox would be creative mode. Survival mode is about resource gathering and exploration and taming the environment.

 

Mojang has set up these expected mechanics, but on a multiplayer server we simply can't provide some of them without huge lag problems. Mojang themselves have also expressed their distaste for some of the overpowered automation designs in the game.

 

There's not much entertainment to be had in automating iron acquisition using spawners, now, is there robr? A couple of hours, maybe. There was much more work grinding mobs last rev to level up the spawners. We will never go back to the enormous iron grinder pods with villagers because of the lag issues caused by all the entities.

 

Now, this is a discussion about game balance: last rev the output of iron grinders was absurdly high and too easily achieved. Any game mechanic which is so ridiculously overpowered that it is the only rational course of action is bad game design. An OP iron grinder at spawn kills the entire early game for new players - they leave spawn in full iron kit. It is one thing to want to build a huge iron grinder in single player. It only affects you. On a multiplayer server, though, it skews the entire economy of the game and can be detrimental to the server as a whole.

 

This rev, the current output is too low for your taste, though it is still possible to get iron by doing nothing (that's not deriding anyone, by the way, that's just the truth). It is the Padmins' role to decide game balance in the interests of the server. I am arguing in support of slower progress in the output of iron grinders and more of other activities. I won't repeat my reasoning as I have said it several times in other comments in this thread.

 

I will give you a few links on game balance, nerfing etc.. The things I am saying about game balance are by no means unique perspectives. They are admin/player perspectives and even Mojang staff perspectives rather than player only perspectives:

• https://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/1vogb3/mob_farms_from_the_view_of_a_server_owner/
• http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/archive/future-updates/385033-it-appears-as-though-jeb-will-be-repealing-the?page=6

When grinders are only twice as effective as normal grinding, you guys might have some kind of case here. Grinders would STILL be advantageous, but at last not ridiculously so. The player "pays up" with a huge time and material investment in advance, and then it takes a LONG time, much, much longer than what he spent, before he "wins out" over the players that meanwhile used their time to grind the normal way.

• https://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/1vlok0/twitter_jeb_will_not_ignore_the_mob_farm_issue/

Mob farms are item dupes in my opinion, but I'm not an idiot who ignores a 1500 posts long uproar on reddit,

-- jeb_  

 

• https://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/yr9pt/why_i_feel_that_dinnerbone_screwed_up_with_the_xp/c5y4klx/?context=3

Hello and stuffs.

The goal behind this change isn't to stop you from using xp grinders - I know that this cannot be done and I wouldn't even try even if it could. It's not to punish you for using them, or to force you to "have fun some other way". It's just to dissuade you from using them constantly verses other means. We don't want players to feel like they have to have a mob grinder if they want to play minecraft "seriously"; that may be how it was before 1.3, but it's changed a lot now and it's really easy to level up even without these.

-- Dinnerbone

 

And finally, some statistics on how people are actually using iron this rev:

• There have been 902 unique logins to PvE so far this rev (determined by checking the playerdata directory). The rest of the figures I list were determined through LogBlock queries.
• In my figures below, I have had to guesstimate how much iron armour and tools people use. We don't currently have the tools to traul through all those inventories. If all 902 unique logins have created 2 suits of armour, 2 picks, one axe, one shovel, one sword and one pair of shears, they would have used 62 iron each just on tools and armour, or 55924 ingots. That's probably a gross over-estimation. Probably half didn't stay long enough to play. And a lot of them moved on to diamond armour before needing a second suit of iron.
• I considered total iron ore mined, nett iron blocks placed, total anvils placed (all anvils were assumed to be destroyed by use, rather than picked up and moved), nett rails, nett iron bars, nett hoppers, nett iron trapdoors, nett cauldrons and nett iron doors.
• I considered LogBlock totals from all three worlds.
• In total, PvE has mined 308288 iron ore this rev.
• PvE has placed iron blocks, anvils, rails, bars hoppers, doors, trapdoors, and cauldrons amounting to 133770 ingots.
• PVE players are estimated to have consumed 55924 ingots of iron in tools and armour.
• That leaves 118594 iron ingots in chests or inventories. That is the equivalent of:
  • 13177 iron blocks
  • 80 beacon bases
  • 23718 hoppers.... half that number would absolutely cripple the tick rate.
  • 316250 rails, or 13 times around the map border

We are about 5 weeks into the rev or 25%. If we continue to acquire iron at this rate, all of these numbers quadruple by the end of the rev without changing anything.

 

I'll put up a spreadsheet later on.

[dnynumberone]

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Edited December 17, 2016 by dnynumberone

[totemo]

The first four pages of LogBlock iron ore mining results (posted earlier) add up as follows (I'm counting destructions only and skipping the placements, to save time):

• Miners 1 - 15: 76043
• Miners 16 - 30: 44453
• Miners 31 - 45: 33972
• Miners 46 - 60: 23418
• Total (1 - 60): 177886 or 57.7% of total iron ore mined.

Your maths is way, way off, even after you corrected it. By a factor of two. And as a result you've had this huge emotional reaction about how depressing it is. It's unnecessary.

 

I'm assuming that with better tools we could plot all this and it would show up as a nice neat bell curve. And that the time usage stats would also show up as a similarly tidy bell curve. The top players by time are always going to end up with a bigger share of the loot. There is nothing surprising or depressing about that. That is reality.

 

The question you should be asking is how do we encourage those 13000 iron blocks to move out of people's chests into the hands of the players that need them.

 

Also from those LogBlock stats I can see that only 474 players of the 902 unique logins mined any iron at all. So to talk in emotive terms about "the other 870 unique logins" is nonsense. Most of them didn't stick around long enough to mine any iron, which in single player would be essential to get redstone or diamonds. Just to back that up: total number of unique players who have broken one log, essential to even starting the game at all: 602.

 

except now people are going to afk at zombie/skelly grinders instead (since you get lots of materials instead of just one), creating huge server lag, 

 

Firstly, zombie or skelly grinders are not going to produce a lot of loot. The smelting of armour and tools was not solely motivated as a game balance fix. We've covered this. And now that Mojang are adding it to the game too, I'm surprised you're even mentioning it.

 

Secondly you're telling me that spawner based grinders create huge server lag. OK then. I guess that means we can't have iron grinders. Or this is just more hyperbole.

 

MobLimiter is designed to deal with spawners and we have an established practice of dealing with players who pile up too many mobs. And in 1.11, the maxEntityCramming game rule kills mobs once they get above 24 in the same spot. 

[dnynumberone]

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Edited December 17, 2016 by dnynumberone

[totemo]

50% didn't mine a single iron and 1/3 didn't stay around to punch a log. That's not depressing. It's just the reality of a saturated market of Minecraft servers. And it's how it is every rev. It is the reality that admins in this organisation have been dealing with for years, on S and P. It is nothing new.

 

This is the problem that admins have: how to attract players and how to retain them long enough to get hooked into the game.

[tobylane]

We should be trying out this vanilla change in (roughly) the new year with not too many extra variables. Do we want to roll back a certain amount of related changes, ie the plugins added this year that change the supply or demand of iron and gold?

 

I'm not necessarily against changing this but we usually decide things on how we feel about it rather than stats.

 

And just for one silly example of skipping some of the tech tree - a few revs ago I joined a town on day two. I explored some of a stronghold that was part of the town base and found an iron pick and a diamond. By this point all I had on me was food from spawn. I branch mined for a few minutes before finding diamonds. I made an axe and went cutting down the trees. That was one of my favourite rev starts because I wasn't repeating the same slow parts I'd done 20 times before. The path to an enchanted diamond pickaxe is similar each rev (large or small server or single player) but what I do from there is all of the fun, variation and creativity.