Openness at mcpublic

[brianherman]

If you decide to delete this post please delete my account also.

 

This post intends to highlight how MCPublic has become less and less about openness and player involvement.

To my knowledge this post breaks no subreddit rules, and should not be removed.

• before: Server logs publicly available for anyone to read at nerd.nu/logs
• current: "We decided to have admin logs working with timestamps rather the public logs" ... "This is a rather low priority issue" [1]

• before: Subreddit moderation log available for anyone to read at nerd.nu/modchat [2]
• current: No sign of this ever returning.

• before: Technical details of the publicly-funded servers readily available [3]
• current: Head Admin wonders why we should pursue openness "just to make it easier for hackers (albiet as well as legit players) to see the plugin list" [4]

• before: Head Admins elected by popular vote amongst players [5]
• current: Head Admins chosen by their predecessors; neither mods nor ordinary players have any say.

• before: Five or more [6] Head Admins at any time, such that decision-making power is distributed.
• current: Only three Head Admins. We've had at least one unfilled seat for over a year now.

• before: Highly contentious bans decided by popular vote [7]
• current: Appeals can be summarily closed by an uninvolved Tech Admin without elaboration [8]

• before: Moderators nominated and voted on by ordinary players [9]
• current: Head Admins decide who is nominated. Moderators then hold a vote, but the result of this vote is not binding and the Head Admins sometimes ignore it.

• before: Moderators given as much power as possible; Head Admins are merely a decision-making council.
• current: Head Admin seeks to remove all forum moderation power from Moderators [10]

I hope this post stimulates a constructive discussion about where our servers are heading.

 

If you decide to delete this post please delete my account also.

[Guest Former Staff]

Linking original topic from the subreddit in case people want to quickly bring forward additional points.

[Four_Down]

Given some of the replies on that subreddit post, there is no way I would actually comment here, I'd rather not be called a "piece of shit" and be told to "Get a life" by a long time Staff Member, who was once a Head Admin.

 

Although, I must admit, some of the replies on that post are really awesome, and it's nice to actually see some progress being made.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Four_Down

[Guest Former Staff]

Although, I must admit, some of the replies on that post are really awesome, and it's nice to actually see some progress being made.

 

Focus on this and do not let the former put you off posting. I'll be moderating any content which is typed just to demean someone.

[TornadoHorse]

In the subreddit post, there were a lot of comments from everyone saying what they want to see happen, what they want to see changed. Now I'd like to see the response from the staff and what they're going to do about it.

[buzzinbee]

I'm fairly sure that what was needed to be brought up has been brought up in that thread on the subreddit already.

[zifnab06]

Thrawn stated she was working on a thread to bring all of the issues presented up. I'm going to assume the admins won't just sweep this under the carpet, and that said forum post will be posted soon. I think I said all that I needed to on the subreddit.

[brianherman]

In regards to zinfab yes the will and they have done so in the past. So I don't expect anything to be changed I just want to point out the hypocrisy. 

[brianherman]

Zinfab you actually trust a head admin that creates a map location for their city and then tells his/her citizens to get there as soon as possible when a rev. begins?

Edited July 28, 2013 by brianherman

[Tolgar]

Barneygale admitted to being the OP of this post, in light of that, quite a few of us will probably disregard a lot of it as concern trolling.  There are changes that could/should be made, but nothing might come out of this now.  Aside from reiterating that we need more than 3 heads.

[Diznatch52]

Barneygale admitted to being the OP of this post, in light of that, quite a few of us will probably disregard a lot of it as concern trolling.  There are changes that could/should be made, but nothing might come out of this now.  Aside from reiterating that we need more than 3 heads.

I really hate to be the one to have to stick my neck out to say this, but why should points made by multiple/numerous people as comments in what may or may not have been a concern-troll post be disregarded just because OP is barneygale? Even if you throw out any points made by the OP who is now purported to be barneygale, which would be incredibly closed-minded, many if not all of those same points were echoed by others including current and past staff members. Why should Thrawn suddenly decide that the points she originally thought were valid enough to warrant putting together forum posts are now invalid simply because they were made by someone who may or may not have had good intentions by making the post?

[Tolgar]

Well the person in question did not have good intentions, that's what concern trolling is.  Put in a new light, they are just bullet points of things that the banned person hates or wants to fuck with.  The point that a lot of people made noise about a topic is meaningless.  Hell I spent my own time putting together a response to a person that seemed to have no clue about things, only to find out that the OP is a fucking snake who KNOWS all the answers already and is just needlessly stirring the pot and trying to get sympathy to get unbanned which will never happen.

 

There was no point to this post, he was already privvy to ALL the information on ALL the topics given, knows the hows and whys.  Maybe he wants change, but its change he'll never see or be a part of, so the only reason he's trying so hard is to fuck with us.

 

http://imgur.com/a/A3XV9

 -- I'm just gonna post this anytime someone mentions barneygale and just hammer home the fact that he is not wanted here and his opinions are not wanted here.

[ROCKONN]

Personally, I find this to be hilarious, as almost none of what's stated is current. Barney's gonna Barney

[TornadoHorse]

Barneygale admitted to being the OP of this post, in light of that, quite a few of us will probably disregard a lot of it as concern trolling.

There are only a few people who will wrongly disregard the post, unfortunately they appear to be the people in power. As graymansnel commented on the subreddit - "if he is barneygale or not, it doesn't matter at all. He made a statement and it needs to be taken as seriously as a head admin saying it. Nerd it corrupt because the individual isn't taken seriously." Everything said in the main post was completely true, had proof and just highlighted how nerd is still going downhill. It doesn't matter who posted it, it needs to be acted on. Whether they had good intentions or not affects nothing. Many very good points were raised and it's clearly something the community feels strongly about.

[Guest Former Staff]

 As graymansnel commented on the subreddit - "if he is barneygale or not, it doesn't matter at all. He made a statement and it needs to be taken as seriously as a head admin saying it. Nerd it corrupt because the individual isn't taken seriously." Everything said in the main post was completely true, had proof and just highlighted how nerd is still going downhill. It doesn't matter who posted it, it needs to be acted on. Whether they had good intentions or not affects nothing. Many very good points were raised and it's clearly something the community feels strongly about.

 

I completely agree with you here TornadoHorse. Regardless of who made the post, to garner 120~ replies in 24 hours shows that it holds an important discussion that several people in the community feel strongly about. The fact that this was posted by Barneygale is a separate matter in my opinion, admittedly I much preferred when the identify of the original poster was kept anonymous as this kept the majority of the focus upon the content.

 

There are only a few people who will wrongly disregard the post, unfortunately they appear to be the people in power.

 

I find this statement a little confusing as this talks about presumed actions that have not yet happened. Assumptions are dangerous things, allow yourself to be proved wrong.

[TornadoHorse]

I find this statement a little confusing as this talks about presumed actions that have not yet happened. Assumptions are dangerous things, allow yourself to be proved wrong.

I just meant the post shouldn't be ignored. Tolgar mentioned that some people would disregard the post purely because of who it was posted by. The ones responding worst to the post in the comments was a few of the more powerful staff. I didn't phrase it too well, may have seemed as if I'm trying to have a dig at some people, sorry about that.

Edited July 28, 2013 by TornadoHorse

[Guest Former Staff]

I didn't phrase it too well, may have seemed as if I'm trying to have a dig at some people.

 

That makes sense, I understand better now, thank you for explaining. Tolgar may be right, maybe some will disregard the post however it seems that the majority of people will continue regardless. It is people's choice if they wish to continue or not but they* will be welcome to join in with everyone else constructively at any time.

 

*This assumes that people disregarding the entire debate exist, I'm open to be proven wrong. :-)

[Jauris]

To disregard someone completely just because of what the may have done in the past is completely wrong, and the "maturity" of many of our beloved mods was on display in that thread. It was fucking disgusting to see the way so many people acted. No matter what you might think of him, he presented valid points, and it doesn't matter if he was "concern trolling". Who the fuck cares?

Well the person in question did not have good intentions, that's what concern trolling is. Put in a new light, they are just bullet points of things that the banned person hates or wants to fuck with. The point that a lot of people made noise about a topic is meaningless. Hell I spent my own time putting together a response to a person that seemed to have no clue about things, only to find out that the OP is a fucking snake who KNOWS all the answers already and is just needlessly stirring the pot and trying to get sympathy to get unbanned which will never happen.

There was no point to this post, he was already privvy to ALL the information on ALL the topics given, knows the hows and whys. Maybe he wants change, but its change he'll never see or be a part of, so the only reason he's trying so hard is to fuck with us.

http://imgur.com/a/A3XV9
-- I'm just gonna post this anytime someone mentions barneygale and just hammer home the fact that he is not wanted here and his opinions are not wanted here.

----EDIT----

Wow, fuck. Is there no delete post option? I meant to put this in my first one. Edited July 28, 2013 by jcll
Merged

[Zuziza]

Non-mod chiming in here.   

 

The issues brought up in the original post on the subreddit are minor and, to the average player on the servers, will not change anything in their server experience whatsoever.  

 

I hope that the admins and mods will keep this in mind when deciding what to prioritize after the new revisions have been handled. Despite all the whining on this forum thread and in the original post, we want new revisions much more than we care about being able to read through a boring moderation log.   

 

Could the servers be more open? For sure. That would be cool. Do most of us give a shit? Probably not. Not all the responses were positive to the post, nor were they all individual people. Hell, there's even quite a few people who are regular posters on the subreddit who didn't even chime in.  

 

IT'S BECAUSE WE DON'T CARE.  

 

There are much more important things to deal with right now, like upgrading to 1.6 or getting CTF going for fundraising purposes. Posts by a by a bunch of whiny people over things that don't really effect them whatsoever don't change that. 

[TornadoHorse]

The issues brought up in the original post on the subreddit are minor and, to the average player on the servers, will not change anything in their server experience whatsoever.  

 

I hope that the admins and mods will keep this in mind when deciding what to prioritize after the new revisions have been handled. Despite all the whining on this forum thread and in the original post, we want new revisions much more than we care about being able to read through a boring moderation log.    

 

IT'S BECAUSE WE DON'T CARE.  

Please stop referring to it as 'we'. Clearly there are many players who care about that post, with almost 200 comments, do you really think we don't care?

[uni0]

It's unfortunate that many players seem to have that attitude of not caring or at least not showing it. For what it's worth, I've heard a lot of feedback behind doors for a long time and one thing is clear, many players don't chime in because they don't think anything will change. 

 

I do agree the issues in the original post are somewhat minor but the general message is not. The general message, at least how I see it, is that better communication is needed. Some times it feels like the policies, decisions, or simply inaction by the staff don't reflect what the community is needing. 

 

Yes focusing on 1.6 and CTF is a priority but wouldn't it be nice if there was more communication on why these have been delayed so much? If techs are busy and have IRL things to take care of, why don't we ask for community help? We've had tech delays and issues for almost close to a year now.

 

We've recently had Totemo added to tech admins. Why wasn't he added sooner? Many of us thought he should have been added a lot sooner. His contributions have had a very positive direct impact on players. The fact he wasn't added sooner is a direct consequence of policies or decision making by the leading staff, whether warranted or not. I understand adding staff, particularly tech admin is a difficult task, but it seems to me the tech situation is still at a frail state and something should have been done sooner.

 

I don't know how much of a concern lag is on p but having lag on s kills the server. Lag has been an issue for almost all the revs I've been in. Many players give up on serious pvp because of lag. We've raised the lag issue before and sometimes we haven't had a single tech admin chime in with any insight at all. There are other servers with a lot of plugins, a lot of players and they have less lag than us. IMHO we should have changed providers a long time ago.

 

I think in part the issue is simply that some of the people in charge don't seem to play the game anymore, or much. That's not necessarily disqualifying thing for leading the servers, but it does have some implications. If you are that kind of admin you should be acutely open to feedback and proactive in seeking feedback so you have an idea of what's needed. Don't just wait for drama to explode to take action.

 

I don't know how much of the tech staff still plays regularly, but consider something like KOTH on survival missing kit signs for an entire rev. If there had been an active tech admin playing on survival, I bet signs would have been working in a couple of days. This may be a minor example, but the larger point applies.

 

At the end of the day this is volunteer labor and it's clear many of the staff have irl priorities and even their gaming tastes shift and that's understandable. It'd be great if more were actively playing on the servers but that doesn't seem viable. I can't really blame anyone, but if someone is interested in improvement, there are clearly many things to improve. Dismissing these concerns as drama is or whining is not wise, there are clearly things that need improvement.

[thrawn21]

Zinfab you actually trust a head admin that creates a map location for their city and then tells his/her citizens to get there as soon as possible when a rev. begins?

 

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, the maps I've created a "special spot" for Pico, I've also done the same for other cities. Seneca, Brom, Argoth, Port Aperture, Wellspring, ... I've had all the major cities in mind in each map I've designed, and I would look at their planning threads and try to build landscapes that would cater to the talents of each. I've sat out of the first hours of the past few revs, letting others find it, and giving them no more information to them than I've given to any town that asks me "where can I find desert?" or "where can I find jungle?": the quadrant, and nothing else. 

 

Really at this point if a person is determined to believe I'm some power-abusing admin, I don't know what else I can do to change that. 

 

 

 

And here's the thread by the way. 

[WayneByNumbers]

I have to admit, when I read the subreddit post and considered just how "political" it sounded, my mind actually flicked briefly to barneygale, but then I thought, "No, that'd be ridiculous."

 

Shows what I know.

 

One thing barneygale is not, and has never been, is unintelligent (he was a tech admin, for crying out loud).  The post was arranged very cleverly, in order to keep a neutral-sounding stance while still expressing hostility and grievance over certain server administration practices (several of which were misrepresented in the "references"), while completely ignoring anything directly related to the gameplay, which I feel is the true purpose of the servers anyway.

 

That's not to say anybody should pretend the post didn't happen, or ignore its contents completely.  I think a few of the points raised were valid concerns in and of themselves, such as the continued unavailability of the public logs (which is a tech issue), and the gradual thinning of the ranks of the Head Admins and all admin positions in general.  I hardly imagine the current admin team is holding "back room discussions" to consolidate individual power; I think it much more likely that they're simply having trouble finding people trustworthy enough, diligent enough, and willing enough to take on such a thankless, risky job (I certainly wouldn't want it).

[JohnAdams1735]

Yes focusing on 1.6 and CTF is a priority but wouldn't it be nice if there was more communication on why these have been delayed so much? If techs are busy and have IRL things to take care of, why don't we ask for community help? We've had tech delays and issues for almost close to a year now.

 

We've recently had Totemo added to tech admins. Why wasn't he added sooner? Many of us thought he should have been added a lot sooner. His contributions have had a very positive direct impact on players. The fact he wasn't added sooner is a direct consequence of policies or decision making by the leading staff, whether warranted or not. I understand adding staff, particularly tech admin is a difficult task, but it seems to me the tech situation is still at a frail state and something should have been done sooner.

[...]

 

I think in part the issue is simply that some of the people in charge don't seem to play the game anymore, or much. That's not necessarily disqualifying thing for leading the servers, but it does have some implications. If you are that kind of admin you should be acutely open to feedback and proactive in seeking feedback so you have an idea of what's needed. Don't just wait for drama to explode to take action.

 

I don't know how much of the tech staff still plays regularly, but consider something like KOTH on survival missing kit signs for an entire rev. If there had been an active tech admin playing on survival, I bet signs would have been working in a couple of days. This may be a minor example, but the larger point applies.

 

At the end of the day this is volunteer labor and it's clear many of the staff have irl priorities and even their gaming tastes shift and that's understandable. It'd be great if more were actively playing on the servers but that doesn't seem viable. I can't really blame anyone, but if someone is interested in improvement, there are clearly many things to improve. Dismissing these concerns as drama is or whining is not wise, there are clearly things that need improvement.

 

The delay has mostly been because of rl restrictions. It was initally delayed because the tech leading it had to leave at the 11th hour for a family emergency. The first tech working on a replacement plugin is working 14-15 hour days most of the time now. The second tech to take it up is... working on it. As are others on the map itself. Of course, now they're working on updating the servers to 1.6.2 - most of the tech chatter today was about that for S.

 

Adding techs is a good idea, of course, but there's such a high level of trust required that they are very careful about who they add. They (and really the whole community even if they don't realize it) have been burned very hard in the recent past - one tech who is (perma)banned and still draws drama to the community and another who suddenly dropped off the face of the earth without a word to us. So this that part of the reason it takes a long time before anyone is trusted enough to be asked. Because of their level of access to the servers themselves is the other reason.

 

I can't speak for the techs, but I don't play as much as I used to because of rl stuff, and the free time I do have is more keeping things going/planning stuff/posting things/ etc. Like today, most of my free time has been posting and planning, touching base with other staff about stuff, and a bit of work on the pending S Rev ;) So that was some playing, technically, which makes today special. I'd play more if I had less Head Admin things to do :3 But I'm happy to do the Head Admin stuff if it means players get to play. Like the CTF, I suspect I'll not play but mod the entire time, which is fine because it means a (slightly) better environment for the players.

 

As far as knowing about stuff and being in touch with the game itself among the players, I rely on mods. If a mod had come to me about those signs, I'd have bugged a tech or figured out how to write the signs. Or the mod themselves could have bugged a tech. Players can do this too - just be polite about it :) "The signs aren't working, will you fix them, please?" or something to that effect.

 

I personally am open to feedback presented in a constructive way. That subreddit post offered a lot of problems but no solutions or even original ideas. It's easy to say "This is broken," it much harder to say "This is broken, but if you maybe..." or even "I was thinking... the public logs are broken. Is there a fix?" If a player came to be like that, I would say "I'm not sure, but I'll ask a tech. Or you can if you'd like." and it would progress from there.

 

I still sometimes feel people expect immediate change or solutions to problems, which is usually impossible. If for no other reason, most of the "bigger" decisions are not the work of a single person - I always consult other staff and I will be even more diligent with this in the future. Which means discussion, which takes time. Sometimes weeks. Or months to deliberate, consider all the implications of the decision, or even just finding the time to deal with it/implement it/test it etc.

[TornadoHorse]

I can't speak for the techs, but I don't play as much as I used to because of rl stuff, and the free time I do have is more keeping things going/planning stuff/posting things/ etc. Like today, most of my free time has been posting and planning, touching base with other staff about stuff, and a bit of work on the pending S Rev ;) So that was some playing, technically, which makes today special. I'd play more if I had less Head Admin things to do :3 But I'm happy to do the Head Admin stuff if it means players get to play. Like the CTF, I suspect I'll not play but mod the entire time, which is fine because it means a (slightly) better environment for the players.

It's great that you want to do mod stuff and to help the community, but you have to remember that staff are players too. If they want to be playing the game, then they should be able to. If you can't do that then clearly something is wrong.