[PMC] Trapping players in Obsidian Prisons?

[XkinOEC]

I was called onto survival to deal with some players, including one who claims to be a long time player saying they had been trapped in a prison due to the  prison pearls mod. They were confused and asking me if such things are even allowed, they felt it was a way to utterly ruin their time on the servers.  I was not sure what the proper action to take was, since I am obviously not that frequently on Survival, however I was the only moderator present at the time. after much consideration, and the fact that the player themselves was getting so disgusted with it that they practically wanted to leave the server and not return unless the plugin was removed.  I made an executive decision to free the player simply tp'ing them up out of the obsidian prison they were placed in. I later talked to troop about it as the people who built the prison were bringing more players (including one of their own alts(which I was not aware of when I tp'd them up) 

 

Troop came on and saved one of the players after observing the situation for himself, and I later brought the third player up and out after they returned (unknown that they were in fact an alt account of one of the prison creators. I was asked by a crew of people whom I have not seen on S before to stop going players an unfair advantage then one of the prison builders links a screenshot of the third trapped players chat logs. 

 

Upon personal observation, this prison system, even if its as short as 20 minutes(max time I let the first player sit in it) seems like such an incredibly good way to loose players that I am shocked we have it installed. I may not play on our realism servers a lot, but I've been on many before and if enemy players had the ability to do this to me, I myself wouldn't return again.

 

Tell me, how is it acceptable to trap players in this? 

Please note, its 3 blocks high and at bedrock level, they also trapped players under stone. more pictures can be viewed here http://imgur.com/a/1RRXb

 

If I did something wrong by freeing a player from this, then go ahead and ban me... But I personally don't think it is at all fair, fun, or welcoming to players new and old alike. and especially when players desire to leave our community because of it. 

[djt832]

Hmm I was under the impression the prison pearls mod imprisoned you in the end, not in someones private prison. Even though I play on S quite often, I'm not sure what the proper action in this situation was. However, from your explanation of the circumstances, I would have done the same thing. I may be biased though, because I am not a supporter of a plug-in that stops a user from continuing to play the game for at least 2 hours.

[TornadoHorse]

This isn't the PrisonPearl plugin, but just a vanilla plugin. Either the player walked in there themselves or the holder of the PrisonPearl summoned them inside of the vault. 

 

Tell me, how is it acceptable to trap players in this? 

 

Because it is one of the plugins we run, and in my opinion it was wrong of you to basically free the player from the box, although the holder of the pearl would probably have just summoned them back when they noticed they were missing.

 

I thoroughly enjoy this plugin along with many others because there's a risk to PvP, there's something to fight for, always an objective. I agree that pearling new players isn't very smart, but we can't and shouldn't just implement rules for that, but instead handle it in the community which is what we're trying to do. Once everyone gets used to this plugin and knows the risks then it should be a lot more even but please don't go around helping people out of it whilst in modmode. I don't know what the sadmins have to say about this, but I think this is something the players have to sort out on their own without staff using their powers to fix it.

 

EDIT: These people can jump themselves to death or get friends to free them, never use your mod powers to do this unless they are naturally stuck. Hopefully we can have a discussion about this with the sadmins to sort this out.

[slide]

So I haven't been pearled yet so I'm not 100% on how it all works. When you get free'd are you ALWAYS killed or only if you are in the end? I think what happened here is the player was pearled, then /ppsummon'd and pushed into the obsidian pit, then they were /ppfree'd which I thought would kill the player so they respawned normally, but from what I'm reading doesn't? So maybe a compromise would be to make it work like they are in the end prison where if they are free'd they die so they can respawn. How does that sound?

[Trooprm32]

 

EDIT: These people can jump themselves to death or get friends to free them, never use your mod powers to do this unless they are naturally stuck. Hopefully we can have a discussion about this with the sadmins to sort this out.

 

The way they were stuck, they wouldnt have been able to starve themselves, and the trap was under thier base at bedrock. Lets be realistic now, it would be pretty fucked up to put someone there, and give us no leaway.

 

Also to reply to Slide; YES, I do think when a player is "freed" they should be sent back to their bed.

[buzzie71]

So I haven't been pearled yet so I'm not 100% on how it all works. When you get free'd are you ALWAYS killed or only if you are in the end? I think what happened here is the player was pearled, then /ppsummon'd and pushed into the obsidian pit, then they were /ppfree'd which I thought would kill the player so they respawned normally, but from what I'm reading doesn't? So maybe a compromise would be to make it work like they are in the end prison where if they are free'd they die so they can respawn. How does that sound?

 

/ppfree frees a prisoner at your feet I believe (https://github.com/drjawa/Introduction-to-Civcraft/wiki/Prison-Pearl:-Imprisoning-Griefers).

[TornadoHorse]

The way they were stuck, they wouldnt have been able to starve themselves, and the trap was under thier base at bedrock. Lets be realistic now, it would be pretty fucked up to put someone there, and give us no leaway.

 

You can jump in any space, you can starve yourself in any space, although it could seem harsh to have that attitude with new players. You can't give an advantage to some players and then not to others, so this has to stop right here.

 

Having something like a new join protection could work. Not being able to pearl or be pearled for the first 3 hours. Another idea is increasing the price of diamond to keep someone imprisoned as time goes on. First day is only 1 diamond for 2 hours. Second day, 3 diamonds per hour. Third is 5 and so on. Although I don't like the idea of not being able to imprison someone permanently (applying a cap on prison length) because that takes away the need to then go and save your friends, which is the reason for a lot of PvP and raids, this solution makes it very difficult to keep someone pearled for a long amount of time. 

 

I don't think this is the problem though, big clans won't be imprisoned forever because they have clan mates to help them out, but it's when new players are getting pearled for long periods of time is the problem.

[CROCKODUCK]

This is why this rev will be over before it begins. I respect the sadmins to death but what a waste of time setting all of this up for only a select group of players who are monopolizing the server because we let them. Very disappointed with how all of this has turned out.

[buchanman]

I think this is the use of prison pearl on player-run servers. Obviously we have strict rules and staff to punish those who don't follow them, so prison pearl isn't right for S. I find the player that was stuck to be an example of this. 

[TornadoHorse]

This is why this rev will be over before it begins. I respect the sadmins to death but what a waste of time setting all of this up for only a select group of players who are monopolizing the server because we let them. Very disappointed with how all of this has turned out.

 

Have you actually tried to fight against it? No, not many people have on S. The PvPers are absolutely loving this revision because that's what we wanted the server to be more focused on. The only ones who I've seen complaining most bitterly are those who don't want to PvP. Get in a clan, get some armour and organise something. So many of the S players are willing to team up against the Civ players.

 

Stats for first 5 days, compared to revs 12-25

 

* 91 peak players (historical average 105, last rev 45)

* 29 average players (historical average 39, last rev 19)

 

An improvement from where we were. Lets hope the numbers keep up and next rev maintains the recovery.

 

A waste of time? I think not.

[Mrloud15]

Tell me, how is it acceptable to trap players in this? 

It's not and we are looking into ways to prevent this from happening in the future.

 

 

If I did something wrong by freeing a player from this, then go ahead and ban me... But I personally don't think it is at all fair, fun, or welcoming to players new and old alike. and especially when players desire to leave our community because of it. 

Given the situation I would have freed them, so i don't think you did anything wrong. However, in situations like this I would like to ask that you attempt to contact a sadmin before you do anything. We are almost always on IRC, so next time just give us a ping to see if we are around before you do anything.

[SwitchViewz]

This isn't the PrisonPearl plugin, but just a vanilla plugin. Either the player walked in there themselves or the holder of the PrisonPearl summoned them inside of the vault. 

 

 

Because it is one of the plugins we run, and in my opinion it was wrong of you to basically free the player from the box, although the holder of the pearl would probably have just summoned them back when they noticed they were missing.

 

I thoroughly enjoy this plugin along with many others because there's a risk to PvP, there's something to fight for, always an objective. I agree that pearling new players isn't very smart, but we can't and shouldn't just implement rules for that, but instead handle it in the community which is what we're trying to do. Once everyone gets used to this plugin and knows the risks then it should be a lot more even but please don't go around helping people out of it whilst in modmode. I don't know what the sadmins have to say about this, but I think this is something the players have to sort out on their own without staff using their powers to fix it.

 

EDIT: These people can jump themselves to death or get friends to free them, never use your mod powers to do this unless they are naturally stuck. Hopefully we can have a discussion about this with the sadmins to sort this out.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but if you summon a player doesn't that mean that the cost for the prison pearl is no longer in effect? If that's the case then they are abusing the plugin to avoid the cost which in my opinion is not only eligible to be rescued from, but also a bannable offense. They are abusing server plugins to there advantage. Please excuse me if I am wrong, I am only starting to get involved and learn all the new S plugins.

[CROCKODUCK]

Edit: moved

[dizney07]

You can jump in any space, you can starve yourself in any space, although it could seem harsh to have that attitude with new players. You can't give an advantage to some players and then not to others, so this has to stop right here.

 

Having something like a new join protection could work. Not being able to pearl or be pearled for the first 3 hours. Another idea is increasing the price of diamond to keep someone imprisoned as time goes on. First day is only 1 diamond for 2 hours. Second day, 3 diamonds per hour. Third is 5 and so on. Although I don't like the idea of not being able to imprison someone permanently (applying a cap on prison length) because that takes away the need to then go and save your friends, which is the reason for a lot of PvP and raids, this solution makes it very difficult to keep someone pearled for a long amount of time. 

 

I don't think this is the problem though, big clans won't be imprisoned forever because they have clan mates to help them out, but it's when new players are getting pearled for long periods of time is the problem.

 

 

You can someone into a 2x1 obsidian "cell" with cobwebs inside that are protected by diamonds. That is why it is unfair in my opinion.

[TheRandomnatrix]

 

Have you actually tried to fight against it? No, not many people have on S. The PvPers are absolutely loving this revision because that's what we wanted the server to be more focused on. The only ones who I've seen complaining most bitterly are those who don't want to PvP. Get in a clan, get some armour and organise something. So many of the S players are willing to team up against the Civ players.

 

 

A waste of time? I think not.

 

I'll lay this out in simple terms for you torn, we are NOT a civcraft server last time I checked......Our job is to make everyone happy, not half the population or less, but that also seems to be lost with our identity...

Well for starters, I don't think this convo is really needed for MCP or this thread. It's not addressing the original topic of players trapping people in protected prisons.

 

Back on topic, I do think that being able to keep players in a reinforced box is extremely unethical. Not everyone knows that you can jump to death, and as dizney said you can put cobwebs that make it extremely hard to starve yourself. While you can technically get out, it would take an extremely long time assuming you have no tools, and not everyone has friends who can break them out. Unlike PrisonPearl where there's a large cost added to deter from doing it, these do not have that cost.

 

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but if you summon a player doesn't that mean that the cost for the prison pearl is no longer in effect? If that's the case then they are abusing the plugin to avoid the cost which in my opinion is not only eligible to be rescued from, but also a bannable offense. They are abusing server plugins to there advantage. Please excuse me if I am wrong, I am only starting to get involved and learn all the new S plugins.

 

I don't know if it should be bannable or not as I don't think it's a direct violation of any rules, but it certainly violates the spirit of the plugins, and massively detracts from the captured player's experience.

[SwitchViewz]

I don't know if it should be bannable or not as I don't think it's a direct violation of any rules, but it certainly violates the spirit of the plugins, and massively detracts from the captured player's experience.

 

After talking about it in /mb with other mods/admins I do feel that it shouldn't be bannable now. The rules don't clearly state what should happen and that is why no one was banned.

[TheRandomnatrix]

Since this wasn't stated in the post, there was also apparently a regen beacon preventing said players from dying via starvation.

[slide]

Also, can we, as staff, at the very least try not to be too rash about dismissing this rev? Sure you can not like some of the changes, but being overly rash to anger doesn't help anything. This issue literally came up last night, and the server hasn't even been up a week. These changes aren't 100% permanent and we knew going into this we will have to make tweaks. This iteration is not exactly what S "is" (no one person gets to say what s "is" either) but we've got to continue to evolve and try to make that evolution for the better. Lets just all try to calmly discuss this stuff so we can make S a better experience for everyone, old *and* new. No one persons version of s is more "right" than anyone elses.