The "Toxic" Debacle

[EeHee2000]

 

It's the admins prerogative to create, keep and use the don't be a dick rule. You're disagreeing with that. You're wanting there to be a rule against rude names on IRC if we don't want you to use them in a rational conversation. It's basic decency.

No, I'm not wanting there to be a rule against that, I'm wanting people to not take stabs at the smallest little incidents and go out of their way to take offense to anything and everything I say and do. 

People need to get thicker skin if the username 'oi_dickheads' is something that frightens and scares them; them not having said thick skin is not my issue, and it should not be treated as such. 

I won't bother to respond to you anymore as your wording implies that should I disagree with you I'm automatically deemed incorrect, which is childish at best. 

You answered none of my above questions, funnily enough. 

[Magnyus]

I have Eehee's permission to request to remove all comments made after UNP's most recent one.

[tobylane]

IF YOU DON'T WANT OTHER PLAYERS TO CALL YOU "TOXIC" THEN STOP DOING WHATEVER IT IS THAT MAKES THEM FEEL LIKE YOU ARE A SHITBAG.

 

Darkelmo's topics are a good example, his thread became less about what he was actually talking about and more about how he was going about saying it.

 

No, I'm not wanting there to be a rule against that, I'm wanting people to not take stabs at the smallest little incidents and go out of their way to take offense to anything and everything I say and do. 

People need to get thicker skin if the username 'oi_dickheads' is something that frightens and scares them; them not having said thick skin is not my issue, and it should not be treated as such. 

I won't bother to respond to you anymore as your wording implies that should I disagree with you I'm automatically deemed incorrect, which is childish at best. 

 

I quoted Mag talking about Darkelmo earlier because it applies to you too. Your choice of words for getting your point across are working against you. This community has many friendly disagreements, but its when people start talking like you and Darkelmo that it becomes unfriendly disagreements.

 

There is a impossible to measure thickness of skin that I believe the admins have determined. Because it's impossible to measure it's a "I'll know it when I see it" thing. Below this, a person could be told you were harsh but not too much. Over this line they could be told you were too harsh, don't do that again. You can have your own line, but you should only live by it in communities you set the rules for.

 

I still consider this on topic, because what I think is toxic is people making up their own standards of acceptable behaviour and the outcomes of that.

[EeHee2000]

 

There is a impossible to measure thickness of skin that I believe the admins have determined. Because it's impossible to measure it's a "I'll know it when I see it" thing. Below this, a person could be told you were harsh but not too much. Over this line they could be told you were too harsh, don't do that again. You can have your own line, but you should only live by it in communities you set the rules for.

 

I still consider this on topic, because what I think is toxic is people making up their own standards of acceptable behaviour and the outcomes of that.

In the bold/underlined text, you're essentially saying that I should no longer say the word 'dickhead' as an admin removed my post that retorted to twilexis' in the thread before this one, yes? 

I wouldn't necessarily say that my words are working against me either, it's just that due to me being who I am, people go to painstaking lengths to draw out the smallest little nitpickings that they deem incorrect or offensive. 

For the most part the rest of your post actually makes sense, which is nice to see. 

[Magnyus]

 

 

 

In my personal opinion I can give two shits about being labeled toxic or whatever, what I despise more than anything is that a silly label like that is enough for someone to completely disregard anything a person says just because they can't sprinkle sugar and rose petals on top of everything.

 

Who the hell are you to tell people how they should say things? Your argument boils down to "no cusswords" and that's something that will most definitely end these servers if implemented.

[tobylane]

If an admin said that you shouldn't have said dickhead, then yes a simplistic but safe rule would be to not say dickhead, including nicknames. When you learn the ability to have a sensible way of playing around near the edge of the rules then do so if you really must (but don't stay there all the time), but I don't think you're there yet.

 

Your words working against you and you being who you are are the same thing, the only difference is the point of view.

[EeHee2000]

If an admin said that you shouldn't have said dickhead, then yes a simplistic but safe rule would be to not say dickhead, including nicknames. When you learn the ability to have a sensible way of playing around near the edge of the rules then do so if you really must (but don't stay there all the time), but I don't think you're there yet.

So you're saying that whatever an admin deems to be correct is correct regardless of possible biases? Thanks, tobylane. 

For the last fucking time, the username 'oi_dickhead' is not skirting the rules. I don't give a shit if you think otherwise, your opinion on the matter is as devoid as you regard everything I say, with good reason. 

[tobylane]

Because you think I disregard what you say because of how you say it, it's OK for you to disregard what I say because you don't like it? If I'm saying it wrong, please reword what I said, keeping the same intention, but in a way you find acceptable. Just like I did for your ban appeal a few weeks ago.

 

An admin may have biases, just like you may have biases. The general assumption, like in life, is that the people in charge are (relatively) in control of their biases. It would be really egotistical to assume that you're always better at that than they are. You were planning to launch a minecraft server a few months ago. Maybe if you went through with that you'd get some useful experience of being on the other side.

Edited March 5, 2015 by tobylane

[Magnyus]

Because you think I disregard what you say because of how you say it, it's OK for you to disregard what I say because you don't like it? If I'm saying it wrong, please reword what I said, keeping the same intention, but in a way you find acceptable. Just like I did for your ban appeal a few weeks ago.

 

An admin may have biases, just like you may have biases. The general assumption, like in life, is that the people in charge are (relatively) in control of their biases. It would be really egotistical to assume that you're always better at that than they are. You were planning to launch a minecraft server a few months ago. Maybe if you went through with that you'd get some useful experience of being on the other side.

What the fuck is your point?

[Darkelmo]

The staff team have no control over their biases,

 

[staff 1] and [staff 2] were in a channel where the words 'n****r and f***ot were used in the middle of and following, the discussions the channel was having involving degrading statements about [more public accusations]. [staff 1] was happy to join in on the [Player 1] insult wagon by calling him and I quote 'one bipolar son of a gun' after laughing at [Player 2's] comment about him being a f***ot. 

 

Before that we were all talking about what a terrible admin mrloud was and how fucked the community was to which the admin in the channel agreed (I think [staff 1] was in the channel for only some of the mr loud conversation, I'll have to go back over my recording) I guess toxic S players aren't the only people who are willing to talk about how fucked the server is.

 

I have recordings of these conversations and would be happy to release them for all people to see that our staff integrity isn't great, It's terrible and this comment will be removed but I assure you all that I literally had to was just sit in a mumble channel for 20 minutes to gain all this stuff. For all those who were saying my claims were unsubstantiated, its all documented ready for approval by the staff to link but they will do everything in their power to stop me from revealing the truth. 

 

[staff 2] is gonna threaten legal action if this post somehow manages not to get removed, I'm sure the internet police will get around to the claim after they have dealt with all the important shit [staff 2].

 

Typing isn't the only way people can say incriminating things nerd.nu staff but I as a bystander cannot without breaking the rules, give concrete evidence of such claims.

 

So they would just get ignored and disregarded. Oh well< i'm basically just posting this as a test for myself to see what kinda covering up the admins are willing to do.

Edited March 5, 2015 by schererererer
Redacted names, since this is a as-of-yet unsubstantiated public accusation

[tobylane]

Darkelmo could you match up what the problems are and the evidence (your summary is good enough) for it, I'm struggling to understand what you've said but I think it can be useful.

 

edit: What I'm trying to say is that, to roughly quote someone else recently, it seems like you're angry and trying to find something to blame. Show me something objective or I'll just wave away things you say as angry and biased, because that appears to be the case.

Edited March 5, 2015 by tobylane

[Narissis]

Either that, or the whole /ignore <player> thing. Why the fuck do you need to announce it to everyone that you're ignoring someone? It's chest-puffing. It's actually MORE "toxic" than the initial issue that started this thread.

 

That is one thing I've never understood. I've been an MMO gamer for years, and I see this behaviour in those games on a daily basis. Some people, for some reason, just have to shout from the rooftops when they ignore someone. It's petty and annoying and there's no benefit at all... just /ignore and move on. But I guess not everyone has the maturity for that.

 

Getting back on-topic with the main line of conversation here, I just wanna say, Darkelmo, that your latest post is exactly the kind of thing I've been asking you for in all of these threads. :) I hope that the staff will think twice before they decide to cover anything up by removing that post - if these are the sorts of behaviours that are going on with staff 'behind the scenes' in Mumble, then they owe it to the community to be transparent about them, take responsibility, and enact some kind of disciplinary action against such problematic staff members.

 

While I won't hesitate to defend staff against blanket statements and vague attacks, I also won't hesitate to demand something be done when there is evidence of wrongdoing on their part... especially when it contravenes the rules that they, themselves, expect the rest of the community to abide by. Leadership begins with example.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Narissis

[LadyRavenOwl]

Just a reminder to people, this isn't a thread to target people about their actions or reactions.  It's about discussing a particular type of behaviour.  There is no need to insult or be disrespectful to each other.

 

In regards to issue with staff, if you have any concerns or evidence supporting inappropriate staff actions, then please bring it to an admin.  There are several of us on the team so if you don't feel comfortable with one, then take it to a different one.  Posting mild or moderate threats in way, shape, or form, isn't an appropriate to deal with an issue.

 

In addition to all of this, my opinion on this whole topic is just take responsibility for your own actions.  Don't blame your actions or reactions on someone else.  Both the staff team and players are guilty of this and it's ridiculous.  Not liking someone is no reason to be rude to them and to create waves.  If someone is being obnoxious or rude to you, there is a point where you just have to let it go and move on with your life.  Responding to it in a hostile way will probably just provoke them further and make you both look like asses.  Ignore it and just get on with doing what you like to do.  I know it's hard but eventually people get bored and get on with their lives as well.  Just because you don't like a person doesn't mean you can't work with them in this community.

 

Every single person here has strengths that add to this community, it's not fair to let some people's weaknesses undermine it.  Being different adds dynamics to our community and I think that is an awesome thing; it'd be boring if we were all the same.  As long as we all (and that means both staff and players) take responsibility for our own independent actions then we'll be fine and get through this rough spot.  No one can make you do or say anything, it's your choice.  So let's make it a positive one.  :D

[schererererer]

The staff team have no control over their biases,

 

[staff 1] and [staff 2] were in a channel where the words 'n****r and f***ot were used in the middle of and following, the discussions the channel was having involving degrading statements about [more public accusations]. [staff 1] was happy to join in on the [Player 1] insult wagon by calling him and I quote 'one bipolar son of a gun' after laughing at [Player 2's] comment about him being a f***ot. 

 

Before that we were all talking about what a terrible admin mrloud was and how fucked the community was to which the admin in the channel agreed (I think [staff 1] was in the channel for only some of the mr loud conversation, I'll have to go back over my recording) I guess toxic S players aren't the only people who are willing to talk about how fucked the server is.

 

I have recordings of these conversations and would be happy to release them for all people to see that our staff integrity isn't great, It's terrible and this comment will be removed but I assure you all that I literally had to was just sit in a mumble channel for 20 minutes to gain all this stuff. For all those who were saying my claims were unsubstantiated, its all documented ready for approval by the staff to link but they will do everything in their power to stop me from revealing the truth. 

 

[staff 2] is gonna threaten legal action if this post somehow manages not to get removed, I'm sure the internet police will get around to the claim after they have dealt with all the important shit [staff 2].

 

Typing isn't the only way people can say incriminating things nerd.nu staff but I as a bystander cannot without breaking the rules, give concrete evidence of such claims.

 

So they would just get ignored and disregarded. Oh well< i'm basically just posting this as a test for myself to see what kinda covering up the admins are willing to do.

Your original post was a public accusation, which we have specific rules against. Don't do that. However, these are serious accusations, so instead of making unsubstantiated public declarations, simply forward the evidence you claim to have to the head admins so we can actually address this. You can't just neglect to report something and then go on about conspiracies and coverups.

[Magnyus]

In regards to issue with staff, if you have any concerns or evidence supporting inappropriate staff actions, then please bring it to an admin.  There are several of us on the team so if you don't feel comfortable with one, then take it to a different one.  Posting mild or moderate threats in way, shape, or form, isn't an appropriate to deal with an issue.

Your original post was a public accusation, which we have specific rules against. Don't do that. However, these are serious accusations, so instead of making unsubstantiated public declarations, simply forward the evidence you claim to have to the head admins so we can actually address this. You can't just neglect to report something and then go on about conspiracies and coverups.

See, the problem with this is that a lot of us don't really trust any of the head admins and even then if we trust one more than another, half the time they're never even fucking around to talk to. I'm also quite tired of the "tell a head admin" thing, in my experience, nothing ever really gets done about it (and if it does no one fucking tells us when we want closure) or things get worse because of it. I like it when accusations are made public because then the admins HAVE to do something about, why? Because everyone that knows will remind them every chance they get as opposed to keeping it in private where it's a hell of a lot easier to brush it under the rug.

I getting really tired of having to keep track of all the pms I get sent just because it's somehow inappropriate to talk about things like that in public, and yet we humiliate players in ban appeals? If you really want people to be completely responsible for their words and actions, then they need to understand anything that they say or do will be made public.

[Narissis]

and yet we humiliate players in ban appeals?

 

Since when?

[EeHee2000]

It isn't necessarily something that's widespread; for example, buzzie71 is handling the appeal of ASHtheBass quite nicely, but in other ban appeals staff have given underhanded and sarcastic responses, with it becoming something of a pattern for certain staff.

Also, just as a side note, I feel as if this thread is about to go into 'off-topic' territory, and that's fine. This is obviously a matter linked to many of the other problems nerd has and I wouldn't assume we can get very far whilst staying on-topic; so far it feels as if we've made no progress at all, as it's been tobylane and I bickering with eachother for half a page.

[LadyRavenOwl]

See, the problem with this is that a lot of us don't really trust any of the head admins and even then if we trust one more than another, half the time they're never even fucking around to talk to. I'm also quite tired of the "tell a head admin" thing, in my experience, nothing ever really gets done about it (and if it does no one fucking tells us when we want closure) or things get worse because of it. I like it when accusations are made public because then the admins HAVE to do something about, why? Because everyone that knows will remind them every chance they get as opposed to keeping it in private where it's a hell of a lot easier to brush it under the rug.

I getting really tired of having to keep track of all the pms I get sent just because it's somehow inappropriate to talk about things like that in public, and yet we humiliate players in ban appeals? If you really want people to be completely responsible for their words and actions, then they need to understand anything that they say or do will be made public.

 

You quote me and then go off on something I didn't even say, so allow me to clarify.  I am fully aware that people have issues (legitimate or not) with our head admin team which is why I said bring it to AN ADMIN, not a head admin.  I've had a few players (they can name themselves if they feel the want to do so) bring up issues with me that have concerns about and I deal with what I can or I bring it to the staff team's attention to get it sorted out.  You can ask anyone, I'm pretty relentless when it comes to getting things done usually, especially if it's impacting our community.

 

As for humiliating players in ban appeals, I will agree that it's a problem.  I will say that it is something that I am working to address and fix because I view it as unnecessary, rude, and counterproductive.  However, this goes back to my point of "just take responsibility for your own actions.  Don't blame your actions or reactions on someone else." and "No one can make you do or say anything, it's your choice.  So let's make it a positive one.  :D" (41)

You can't justify your actions based on something else.  If your actions are negative then you have to take responsibility for that.  There are so many different ways to solve a problem, not all of them are negative, so it's in everyone's best interest to pick one that is positive.  If you approach a problem with a positive and open mind, people are more likely to receive what you have to say rather than shut down and get defensive.

 

The thing I am getting at the most here is that I'm not taking any particular side on this matter.  Am I on staff and do my best to create a positive outcome with other staff members?  Absolutely.  Will I defend the staff team against things that I don't agree are true?  Of course.  However, will I also stand up for players when I think that it's necessary (and more often times I do than don't)?  You betcha.  I did so as a moderator and I will continue to do so as an admin, it's a side effect I guess from being a sociology major.  Both sides of this issue have merit, whether each side wants to admit or not.  We ALL have things we can work on and nothing is going to change until each side starts taking responsibility for their actions and start listening better.  This isn't an issue of well players (or staff) need to start treating the other side better first either, we all need to just do it.

[d3north]

Since when?

most recently it was abroosky's appeal and jchance's response that was a bit off-putting. https://nerd.nu/forums/topic/3126-abroosky-jchance/#entry24396

 

Im going to give a play-by-play of the appeal, to show what exactly is wrong.

 

Abroosky used to play quite a bit, and fell off a while back. Recently he started playing again, and was banned not too long after Gizzletinks was, under the reasoning that they were one and the same person. Jchance proceeded to link to a terrible site with a video that was unrelated about some PvP, and used it as the main defense of the ban, as it somehow reinforces the claim of how abroosky is on a list of evasion accounts. Appeal is locked and moved.

 

Abroosky reopens an appeal with a search for more information, and gives a proper link to the video on youtube. He refutes the fact that his account is compromised, and gives proof denying jchances entire argument of playing in a certain timeframe using the public logs to prove that he was playing far before the incriminating time. He questions whether or not facts were checked when the ban was made, and closes with a statement of how his friendship with Gizzletinks will probably be the reason for the denial.

 

Jchance's response to the appeal is as follows: You're right, you won't get unbanned.  Closing appeal.

 

The amount of work and facts in this appeal showing why Abroosky should be unbanned is thrown out the window by jchance, and all without even a bit of rebuttal to his claims. The disregard to facts and claims is astounding. How quickly it was tossed aside and disregarded should be a wake-up call to just how little people care when they deal with those who are labeled toxic. 

 

Now I know this post is probably going to get removed for "discussing bans in public chat" and I'm going to get warned again for speaking my mind, but it just needed to be put out there.

Edited March 5, 2015 by d3north

[UNP]

I read that appeal too and was kinda dumbstruck by jchances outright refusal to behave in a fair, level-headed manner. "Guilt by association" isn't even a remotely sound reason for a permaban. Then again, I've seen him mute people for disagreeing with and/or questioning his motives. So it shouldn't have come as a surprise.

 

Abroosky should take it higher, if possible. The guy did nothing wrong.

 

Once again, there's definite "toxicity" there... but it ain't from Abroosky's side of the fence.

Edited March 5, 2015 by UNP

[Guest]

I read that appeal too and was kinda dumbstruck by jchances outright refusal to behave in a fair, level-headed manner. "Guilt by association" isn't even a remotely sound reason for a permaban. Then again, I've seen him mute people for disagreeing with and/or questioning his motives. So it shouldn't have come as a surprise.

 

Abroosky should take it higher, if possible. The guy did nothing wrong.

 

You can't really take a ban up with a higher member of the community when the person who banned you holds the highest position in the community, but I definitely agree with what you're saying here.

 

From what I understand (and from my brief interactions with Abroosky), he's still interested in playing here, and he's disappointed that he was permanently banned based on guilt by association. I think it's very unfortunate that the Head Admins are not willing to allow him the ability to prove that he can remain a productive member of this community, even though it's (falsely) presumed (using outdated evidence which had no context with nerd.nu) that he was allowing permanently banned players to access the server through an additional account.

Edited March 5, 2015 by AvadaKedavra

[LadyRavenOwl]

I read that appeal too and was kinda dumbstruck by jchances outright refusal to behave in a fair, level-headed manner. "Guilt by association" isn't even a remotely sound reason for a permaban. Then again, I've seen him mute people for disagreeing with and/or questioning his motives. So it shouldn't have come as a surprise.

 

Abroosky should take it higher, if possible. The guy did nothing wrong.

 

Once again, there's definite "toxicity" there... but it ain't from Abroosky's side of the fence.

 

From an outside standpoint I can understand how there could be the reasoning that Abroosky did nothing wrong.  However, when all the facts are compiled and everything is said and done, there were defining factors on why the ban held.  Due to the sensitivity of the issue, I personally would prefer a head admin to clarify the factors that were brought into play rather than disclose anything that shouldn't be said accidentally myself.

 

Also the whole point of this thread is to get away from calling each other "toxic" etc. so I am rather confused why you said your last sentence.

[UNP]

From an outside standpoint I can understand how there could be the reasoning that Abroosky did nothing wrong.  However, when all the facts are compiled and everything is said and done, there were defining factors on why the ban held.  Due to the sensitivity of the issue, I personally would prefer a head admin to clarify the factors that were brought into play rather than disclose anything that shouldn't be said accidentally myself.

 

Also the whole point of this thread is to get away from calling each other "toxic" etc. so I am rather confused why you said your last sentence.

 

I'm sorry but no. When all the facts are compiled, as you said, jchance completely ignored factual evidence that Abroosky provided proving he'd been around longer than the other guy, in favour of using his dislike of said other guy to justify a permaban.

 

So far three independent people in this thread alone have pointed this out. Surely you're not claiming that we all somehow independently reached the wrong conclusion from the same evidence?

[LadyRavenOwl]

I'm sorry but no. When all the facts are compiled, as you said, jchance completely ignored factual evidence that Abroosky provided proving he'd been around longer than the other guy, in favour of using his dislike of said other guy to justify a permaban.

 

So far three independent people in this thread alone have pointed this out. Surely you're not claiming that we all somehow independently reached the wrong conclusion from the same evidence?

 

"From an outside standpoint I can understand how there could be the reasoning that Abroosky did nothing wrong." (LadyRavenOwl, 50)

 

Then I went on to say that "when all the facts are compiled and everything is said and done, there were defining factors on why the ban held."  (50)  This meaning, other things that were not posted to the public.  That all said, could it be said that jchance's phrasing was a little harsh?  Yes.  Could it be said that it would have been appreciated if jchance had posted more reasons as to why?  Yes.  I'm not saying that the situation in question is not without issues.  I am saying is there were other things taken into consideration that led to the ban holding.

[UNP]

I am saying is there were other things taken into consideration that led to the ban holding.

 

Yes, of course there were. There's always "other things" that are "taken into consideration" in these matters.