The "Toxic" Debacle

[jchance]

Also the whole point of this thread is to get away from calling each other "toxic" etc. so I am rather confused why you said your last sentence.

 

I'm pretty sure he's referring to me as the "toxic" influence in the community.

 

This brings up an interesting question- if I have to hurt the feelings of 10 people in the community to remove 90% of the drama, am I acting in the communities best interest?   I think so, although I'm sure the 10 people who I make angry won't agree.   You can call me toxic if you like, I have thick skin.

 

abroosky's second appeal was summarily dismissed for these reasons:

 

1. I already told him that based on evidence I would not unban the account.   How many times have any of you seen me change my mind?  I know some must think I just shoot from the hip on decisions I make, but the truth that anyone who actually knows me is that I am very careful and calculated in my decision making process BEFORE I post it.   Did you want me to give the kid (or banned player pretending to be the kid, who knows?) false hope?  That wastes everybody's time.

    

2. The account shared IP and alt checks with over 8 banned players, including alts that have been known to be shared with permbanned players.  Many somebodies were sharing accounts and most of them were banned.  Its not like I found one banned player and then decided to ban 10 accounts- I found 90% banned players and decided to ban the other 10% to be sure.

    

3. His second appeal was written in a passive aggressive and hostile manner as a "fuck you" too, so he didn't do himself any favors there either.  Do you guys honestly think that approach works in life?

    

4. "What gizzle does have access to is my cracked alt"  What?  You admit to using a cracked alt on our servers and want to be unbanned?

 

The fact is I don't have a crack team of NSA analysts here at nerd.nu to figure out which alts are shared, being used to evade bans, or whatever.  All I know is that they're all related and 90% of them were either banned or alts shared with banned players.   That is enough justification to know that something fishy is going on with that group of alts and none of them belong on our servers if it means there is a chance of letting the least desirable players back in.

 

The time comes when there is enough evidence for me to act knowing that I might remove one marginal player (who has been banned a few times in the past for conduct) to get rid of alts being shared between other banned players.  I made a judgement call.  I'm sorry if he was your friend, or if he got banned in the crossfire as it were.   I still hold that the entire community is a better place without those accounts using our servers. 

 

I don't really know what to say to you if you think that is toxic.   FWIW, I carefully look at evidence in all decisions and make the choice that I think is best for the community.  They're not always popular decisions, and some people are apt to get mad every now and then, but I stand by them.  

 

If you guys honestly believe the head admin team is so bad then the only advice I can give you is to play somewhere else.   If you agree with our decisions or not we are in charge of this mess and we're going to continue to act in what we see are the best interests of the community, not the best interests of you personally.

[jchance]

On a side note, this thread has seriously derailed in to a "why jchance sux" thread, which is fine, but you might want to stay on topic.   You can start a whole new thread why jchance sux if you like.

[UNP]

On a side note, this thread has seriously derailed in to a "why jchance sux" thread, which is fine, but you might want to stay on topic.   You can start a whole new thread why jchance sux if you like.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say you suck, but I definitely don't agree with a lot of the stances you take.

 

And no, he wasn't my friend. I didn't even know the guy at all, I just read the ban appeal. I do like the little implication you're making though that the only people who could/would defend him are people who are friends with him. It's my opinion that mods should be above that kind of attitude, but then again you've made it abundantly clear you couldn't give less of a shit about my opinion.

Edited March 6, 2015 by UNP

[d3north]

On a side note, this thread has seriously derailed in to a "why jchance sux" thread, which is fine, but you might want to stay on topic.   You can start a whole new thread why jchance sux if you like.

I provided an example of how staff were condescending/publicly shaming (or seemed to be) in ban appeals. Not my fault people took it and ran.with it.

[Magnyus]

abroosky's second appeal was summarily dismissed for these reasons:

 

1. I already told him that based on evidence I would not unban the account.   How many times have any of you seen me change my mind?  I know some must think I just shoot from the hip on decisions I make, but the truth that anyone who actually knows me is that I am very careful and calculated in my decision making process BEFORE I post it.   Did you want me to give the kid (or banned player pretending to be the kid, who knows?) false hope?  That wastes everybody's time.

    

2. The account shared IP and alt checks with over 8 banned players, including alts that have been known to be shared with permbanned players.  Many somebodies were sharing accounts and most of them were banned.  Its not like I found one banned player and then decided to ban 10 accounts- I found 90% banned players and decided to ban the other 10% to be sure.

    

3. His second appeal was written in a passive aggressive and hostile manner as a "fuck you" too, so he didn't do himself any favors there either.  Do you guys honestly think that approach works in life?

If you guys honestly believe the head admin team is so bad then the only advice I can give you is to play somewhere else.   If you agree with our decisions or not we are in charge of this mess and we're going to continue to act in what we see are the best interests of the community, not the best interests of you personally.

 

-_-

 

1. You claim to have been very careful and calculated, but the reason you provided in the first appeal was irrelevant to any rules he may have broken. You also claimed that his account hadn't been used until after Gizzle was banned, which he proved wrong.

 

2. Why the fuck didn't you mention any of this in the actual appeal? If this is your legit reason as to why he'll remain banned, why on earth are you posting it here and not where it should have been?

 

3. The only casual "fuck you" I got out of his thread was when he one upped you by not linking a shithole adware infested website, and linked to YouTube. The rest was just fact, after fact, after fact. The last part of his message is just because he's aware of how futile his appeal was.

 

That's a shitty response, several players have been a part of this community for much longer than many of these head admins, and they still want to contribute and help out in the miniscule ways that they can and just because they don't agree with you you expect them to leave? That's just stupid. Yeah sure, we can't be run by the community, because democracies when it comes to things like this are a shitfest, but jesus fucking christ, tons of people want to stake a claim in helping things out and they either don't get listened to, or get shut down. No one as far as I know (except for maybe Toby) has specifically stated that they want Nerd's staff to cater to their own personal desires and if you think they have then maybe you yourself are going about things the wrong way.

 

So many things never get done because any group of players or moderators can make as much progress as they'd like in one field, but the brick wall of head admins doesn't let any of that come to fruition. Since when have your interests been above anyone else's? You'd be no different than any of the rest of us if you didn't have your silly title.

[UNP]

 

2. Why the fuck didn't you mention any of this in the actual appeal? If this is your legit reason as to why he'll remain banned, why on earth are you posting it here and not where it should have been?

 

 

My guess is his reasoning will be something along the lines of "because I don't answer to you". If it was just a player talking to another player, he'd be right. However, server admins should be extremely accountable to the playerbase - among other things, it's likely to keep them honest and non-tyrannical.

[Narissis]

I do like the little implication you're making though that the only people who could/would defend him are people who are friends with him. It's my opinion that mods should be above that kind of attitude, but then again you've made it abundantly clear you couldn't give less of a shit about my opinion.

 

I find it very interesting that there's so much conjecture in these staff critique threads about mods doing things because they "like" or "dislike" somebody, but if a mod/admin makes the same implication about a player, all of a sudden they're evil for it.

 

It's almost as if nothing the staff ever does could possibly be satisfactory.

[EeHee2000]

Jchance, I expect you to disregard this as I'm one of those 10 'toxic' players you refer to. That's fine.
The fact of the matter is that the way people are determined to be 'toxic' here is by word of mouth, and it's served to split people apart very efficiently, to the point where players are expecting Head Admins to disregard what they say. Would you not agree that there's something wrong with that? The amount of arguing that happens on these forums about every single little tidbit out of place is immense, and we're all guilty of it, toxic and non-toxic alike.
I think we've associated the word 'toxic' with a very specific group of players, without much regard for as to whether those players are trying to be toxic; it seems like it's implied that everyone who is toxic is a troll and troublemaker, which is certainly not the case.
Instead of treating those who you view as toxic to be nothing but a bunch of circlejerking twits trying to ruin nerd.nu, start actually considering what we say. Yes, I know that's going to be difficult, but I believe in you.

Another problem I'm finding is that once people determine you to be toxic, every single thing you say from then on is irrelevant or an attempt to cause trouble; leaving no chance for redemption of any sort, which is rather fucking irritating. Irritating enough, might I add, that myself and others have even gotten alts in the past to try and start fresh.
I have to watch my wording very fucking carefully to ensure that people such as tobylane and twilexis don't further transform my words into the most offensive things possible, I can't bring up any ideas/suggestions/issues to Head Admins because they believe I'm a troll, and the only reason I wasn't fucking censored to the favour of someone that really fucking dislikes me yesterday is due to the most recent SAdmin username.

Edited March 6, 2015 by EeHee2000

[UNP]

I find it very interesting that there's so much conjecture in these staff critique threads about mods doing things because they "like" or "dislike" somebody, but if a mod/admin makes the same implication about a player, all of a sudden they're evil for it.

 

It's almost as if nothing the staff ever does could possibly be satisfactory.

 

It's only a problem because the admins are in a position to make ban judgments on people, and players aren't. The people who have the power should not be insinuating that only the friends of "rulebreakers" would defend them, because that leads extremely rapidly to the "guilt by association" bans mentioned above.

[jchance]

1. You claim to have been very careful and calculated, but the reason you provided in the first appeal was irrelevant to any rules he may have broken. You also claimed that his account hadn't been used until after Gizzle was banned, which he proved wrong.

 

2. Why the fuck didn't you mention any of this in the actual appeal? If this is your legit reason as to why he'll remain banned, why on earth are you posting it here and not where it should have been?

 

There were other alts still being investigated (which resulted in more bans, none of which have been appealed).   

 

That's a shitty response, several players have been a part of this community for much longer than many of these head admins, and they still want to contribute and help out in the miniscule ways that they can and just because they don't agree with you you expect them to leave? That's just stupid. Yeah sure, we can't be run by the community, because democracies when it comes to things like this are a shitfest, but jesus fucking christ, tons of people want to stake a claim in helping things out and they either don't get listened to, or get shut down. No one as far as I know (except for maybe Toby) has specifically stated that they want Nerd's staff to cater to their own personal desires and if you think they have then maybe you yourself are going about things the wrong way.

 

 

3 out of 4 head admins have been here for over 3 years that I know of.  

 

You're taking this to a crazy absolute that I didn't intend, and for that I apologize for not being clearer.  The point of me saying "you should play somewhere else" is that when your entire discourse devolves in to to angry shit slinging on the forums then you should absolutely play somewhere else.  I don't take any of this personally because its a game.  if a player takes it to such a personal level where they need to attack every decision of an admin then this is not the community for them and they should move on.

 

I don't think its fair to lump me in with the "don't listen and shut people down" group-  I have shown time and again that I will listen to anyone who wants to talk to me- from players who contact me for more clarification on their ban in IRC to player concerns and compliants in game (which you and I had a spirited hour long conversation on C and I didn't shut you down as everyone was asking).

 

Hell, I talk to players I don't even think should be here because its the "job" that comes with my silly title.

 

Now, that said, I don't have to DO what players tell me or agree with them but that doesn't mean I won't listen and at least give you feedback about why I'm not going to do a thing.  If you like my answer or not, I will always give you a straight answer.

 

 

So many things never get done because any group of players or moderators can make as much progress as they'd like in one field, but the brick wall of head admins doesn't let any of that come to fruition. Since when have your interests been above anyone else's? You'd be no different than any of the rest of us if you didn't have your silly title.

 

I don't see this head admin brick wall.   We've responded to widespread community feedback, filled a server with admins who play on that server, and more based on what the community says.  I'm even open to revising rules based on community feedback except where it removes the teeth we need as administrators to manage the community.

 

I get that you're angry, and I honestly care what you're angry about or I would just ignore this thread, but I can't figure out exactly what that thing is thats got you all mad.

[jchance]

Jchance, I expect you to disregard this as I'm one of those 10 'toxic' players you refer to. That's fine.

The fact of the matter is that the way people are determined to be 'toxic' here is by word of mouth, and it's served to split people apart very efficiently, to the point where players are expecting Head Admins to disregard what they say. Would you not agree that there's something wrong with that? The amount of arguing that happens on these forums about every single little tidbit out of place is immense, and we're all guilty of it, toxic and non-toxic alike.

I think we've associated the word 'toxic' with a very specific group of players, without much regard for as to whether those players are trying to be toxic; it seems like it's implied that everyone who is toxic is a troll and troublemaker, which is certainly not the case.

Instead of treating those who you view as toxic to be nothing but a bunch of circlejerking twits trying to ruin nerd.nu, start actually considering what we say. Yes, I know that's going to be difficult, but I believe in you.

Another problem I'm finding is that once people determine you to be toxic, every single thing you say from then on is irrelevant or an attempt to cause trouble; leaving no chance for redemption of any sort, which is rather fucking irritating. Irritating enough, might I add, that myself and others have even gotten alts in the past to try and start fresh.

I have to watch my wording very fucking carefully to ensure that people such as tobylane and twilexis don't further transform my words into the most offensive things possible, I can't bring up any ideas/suggestions/issues to Head Admins because they believe I'm a troll, and the only reason I wasn't fucking censored to the favour of someone that really fucking dislikes me yesterday is due to the most recent SAdmin username.

 

 

And just so I'm clear- this is not EeHee specific- this is for anyone that thinks admins ignore them as trolls.

 

I read everything you post (for the most part, some threads I miss because I'm human).

 

I agree that there is a social dynamic issue with Nerd.nu in which there is a small group of very vocal, dissatisfied players who many label as troublemakers.  I'm not really sure what I can do about it though since:

 

a)  Lots of people already think you're full of shit

 

b)  You go in to every situation expecting to be ignored and treated like you're full of shit.  This usually leads to acting like an ass for most people.

 

More acting like an ass = more people think you're full of shit = more acting line an ass = ...

 

One of these things has to change to make it stop, and I'll tell you right now that making everyone magically think you're not a troll while you're acting like an ass is not going to work.

 

If it were up to me, everyone would have rational discourse on the forums and we'd solve some community issues.  However, we're all human and I can't wave a magic wand and make every admin think that EeHee (or anyone else) turned over a new leaf and is done trolling and 100% community improvement oriented.  Thats just not possible- people hold grudges.  I can't make them go away.

 

This post by you was one of the most reasonable and coherent I've seen.   If you posted more like this (without the passive aggressive bit about "Oh I know I'm going to be ignored") then people's opinions will change.   I know my opinion will change, and silly title aside thats a big stride in the right direction since I'm one of the few admins that will actually engage with you while 5 other people are flinging shit at me.

Edited March 6, 2015 by jchance
removed an extra E from EeHee's name

[UNP]

 However, we're all human and I can't wave a magic wand and make every admin think that EeHee (or anyone else) turned over a new leaf and is done trolling and 100% community improvement oriented.

 

I have yet to see him trolling. I DO see him saying stuff you clearly don't like, though. I'm not sure if anyone's ever explained this to you, but that doesn't constitute trolling. Furthermore, you're in no way obligated to have people say or do only things that are approved by you.

 

I think that's something that really, really needs to be clearly and firmly stated in the modern internet age: "trolling" and "things you don't like hearing" are in no way the same thing.

[Magnyus]

 

I know my opinion will change, and silly title aside thats a big stride in the right direction since I'm one of the few admins that will actually engage with you while 5 other people are flinging shit at me.

 

This right here. This is my problem with the Head Admins, I already learned the first time I had a conversation with you that it's quite apparent that you're willing to listen to any and all players when it comes to this. But I can't say that about ANY of the other heads since Barlimore. (Maybe Thrawn but her presence even then was waning) Cyotie is rarely ever around and if he is it's for some permaban or to lock a thread, maybe delete a subreddit post. MrLoud is everywhere, but getting him to even talk to us is a fucking nightmare, let alone have a coherent conversation with him. And I've had minimal interaction with Scher, though from what I've seen thus far his stance isn't all too different from your own.

 

I don't think it's fair to you that you have to deal with the brunt of everyone's opinions. My earlier post was merely to point out how the way you went about handling the appeal only put you in a bad light. And I appreciate your clarification, I'm not really a fan of absolute statements like that.

 

I really don't care about the "toxic" crap because I'm pretty sure it has nothing to with the term itself and rather that group of disgruntled players. It's origins lie in the neglect that both S and C had in comparison to P, as well as the clash of cultures, mostly from S' dynamic group of players and P's less outspoken ones. Unfortunately for everyone involved, there's nothing we can do about any of the past decisions of former staff members, what happened happened, and all we can do now is move forward. But at the pace we're currently moving at, nothing will change.

[Difficult1]

I think the real problem here is people who turn these "potentially productive" posts to shitfests.

I read the first page of these posts and it already descended into "Fuck you and Fuck this and We hate (name here)" and people emphasizing points that the main player base hasn't even given an opinion on or cares about. It doesn't take a mathmatition to figure out that the people who post on the forums are not the entire player base/express their opinions in anyway. Not to say all people who post here are not productive, what I'm getting at is it just turns into text box warfare and people arguing about a block game. A little sad. So many posts are being made about a crumbling community and why its crumbling, but the reasons are just different every day (if they are right or wrong). People hate staff members for various things etc. etc. Whats the point, why even make posts like this and pretend act like "mature adults" because fact is, most of these posts are just grudge matches. Its one thing to be mature and have an actual conversation, its another to pretend your being mature and telling people to be when your not being anywhere close yourself.

 

TLDR: if you have a problem with the community or think your being discriminated any way, you may leave if you would like. Not that hard, plenty of communities around.

 

Oh and the clash of C, P, and S is a little petty and not widespread among players just a certain few, although I would probably guess exactly the individuals would argue against that. I would like to remind everyone who thinks different that the IPs are: 

 

C.nerd.nu S.nerd.nu and P.nerd.nu

Log on using those, and come have a good time instead of arguing in the forums.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Difficult1

[UNP]

 

TLDR: if you have a problem with the community or think your being discriminated any way, why not just leave? Not that hard, plenty of communities around.

 

 

 

Yes, because the community at large behaving in an exclusive and insular fashion is SURE to improve the general morale of the playerbase.

[Difficult1]

Yes, because the community at large behaving in an exclusive and insular fashion is SURE to improve the general morale of the playerbase.

 

You know the word general means everybody right? Not like 12 people in a forum? Most people atm are enjoying the new revs, moral seems to be pretty high. Ik I'm having fun with the new P and C rev personally.

 

 

 

 

But i digress.

(also just a disclaimer, when i say 12 people in a forum I don't mean the people posting and being productive by planning events, rallying for builds, showing off towns etc.)

Edited March 6, 2015 by Difficult1

[Magnyus]

 

TLDR: if you have a problem with the community or think your being discriminated any way, why not just leave? Not that hard, plenty of communities around.

 

.-.

 

If you read any of the posts you would understand that this is unfair to ask of people, people aren't going to up and leave when their other friends also play on here. Then there's the others that have been here for so long and don't want to leave because it's an investment of their time and interest.

 

I only speak for myself, but Nerd is quite important to me, I met a lot of great people and made a lot of great friends. (hell, I wouldn't even have met kitty if I wasn't here) I've also invested quite a bit of time and effort to it, I am most definitely not going to get up and leave all of it just because I don't see eye to eye with a staff member. No, I'm going to stay and continue my efforts to improve things here because I know that Nerd is an amazing catalyst for people such as myself to make friends and wonderful memories, even if they do take place in a silly block game, or through a dumb conversation on mumble. Don't give advice without taking such factors into consideration.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Magnyus

[Difficult1]

Fair enough, I understand perfectly about investment in nerd. I have made my post clearer by making it clearer as an option not a request. As I originally intended.

[Narissis]

I have yet to see him trolling. I DO see him saying stuff you clearly don't like, though. I'm not sure if anyone's ever explained this to you, but that doesn't constitute trolling. Furthermore, you're in no way obligated to have people say or do only things that are approved by you.

 

I think that's something that really, really needs to be clearly and firmly stated in the modern internet age: "trolling" and "things you don't like hearing" are in no way the same thing.

 

Nowhere in jchance's post did he accuse Eehee of trolling. He did attempt to explain why some people continue to see Eehee as a troll, but he deliberately did not take a side.

 

Now you're getting on jchance's case for something he did not do, because he brought up the fact that *some* people may do it in order to explain how he, as an administrator, cannot control the reactions of others.

[WayneByNumbers]

So far 15 people (16 including me) have posted in this thread.  Has a single one made an actual suggestion?

 

And I don't just mean a generalization.  jchance's "Become a better person and Nerd will get better," LRO's "Own your actions," and Eehee's "Listen even to those you disagree with" are certainly good advice for all, but not exactly a plan of action.  What should actually happen, and how would it be done?

[tobylane]

Jchance said don't do what other people see as a sign of a label you don't want.

 

Eehee said people should have a thicker skin.

 

I was implying that everyone should notice that their first view is subjective and possibly argumentative, and try to form an objective view.

[WayneByNumbers]

Jchance said don't do what other people see as a sign of a label you don't want.

 

Eehee said people should have a thicker skin.

 

I was implying that everyone should notice that their first view is subjective and possibly argumentative, and try to form an objective view.

 

True, true, and true.  I was just paraphrasing a few small selections, not writing a thesis summary.

[LadyRavenOwl]

What should actually happen, and how would it be done?

 

We are planning on having a staff meeting and then a community meeting after the admin meeting that is occurring in the next week or so.  Closer to the meeting we will have an opportunity for people to bring things up in a SEPARATE thread as items they want to have addressed and an outline of how the meetings will be run.  I will even make sure to link the post in this thread after it is made.  Please do not start offering suggestions in this thread or derail it with things other than talking about the topic at hand, those posts will result in being hidden.  I am mentioning this solution because I want everyone to know that we are listening and we are working on coming to a solution so that the community can bridge the gap that is between certain circles.

[SwitchViewz]

So what I'm about to say will probably get a bunch of flak but I would first like to state that no matter who you are, if you have a legitimate concern and you come to me, I will bring it to other staff members attention. Everyone has a right to be heard and be able to voice there concern/opinion.

 

You guys are saying that there is a problem being labeled as toxic but then what some of you do is the exact opposite of acting maturely. A few examples, putting "allahu akbar you fucking twat" in your signature or location isn't very nice and can even be offensive to some people. Or putting a didgeridoo as your avatar when past people have gotten banned for it. Or putting a big "Fuck You" in your signature. Yes, I'm calling some of you out because really, that kind of shit is not ok. If you want to be treated seriously and not labeled as "that group of players", perhaps you should start by cleaning up your act.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I am all for being silly and having a good time but you need to realize when you're crossing a line.

[Narissis]

To expand on what Switchviewz said, because I know some people will probably argue about censorship and being told what they can and can't say and whatnot...

 

There's a difference between censorship and poor taste. And while there are some things (including a few of the things Switch mentioned) that are bannable and could therefore be considered censorship, other things are stuff you can freely say, but that doesn't mean people are obligated to be okay with you saying it.

 

Nobody is trying to tell you that you can't say what you want, provided it isn't a bannable word or phrase. But by the same token, you can't expect to use vitriolic or confrontational or excessively sarcastic (etc. etc.) language with no consequences, either.

 

Before complaining about not being taken seriously, try communicating in a way that encourages other players to take you seriously.

 

Of course, this does come with the disclaimer that everyone will react differently to different things. For instance, Switch doesn't care for the 'fuck you' signature but I don't mind it - it's in a cursive font and obviously mean to be taken lightly. Others might consider it an attempt at provocation, though. No one's saying you can't have a 'fuck you' signature, but you have to expect that it may cause some people to take you less seriously.

 

The 'allahu akbar you fucking twat' signature, on the other hand, I don't really understand. It doesn't really work as a joke, and it's obviously not meant to be taken seriously... so what's the point? The impression I get from it is that there can be no purpose other than to invite a negative reaction from people. Again, I'm not going to tell people they can't have a certain signature. That's not my place. But I am going to see something like that and draw conclusions about the maturity (or lack thereof) of the person who owns it. You can accuse me of not having a 'thick enough skin' to ignore the signature, but the missing link there is that the signature doesn't offend me. What it does do is to provide a useful yardstick by which to gauge the kind of maturity I can expect from the player.

 

The TL;DR here would be that using intentionally inciteful language doesn't have to be against the rules to be a bad idea, and that you can't put all the blame on another player for failing to overlook immaturity when you've made no effort to be mature and show the community a measure of civility.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Narissis