Elephant in the Room (xpost with /r/mcpublic)

[Zuziza]

I have long been a supporter of the admin and mod team and have frequently argued against having too much user involvement in moderation or choosing moderators. That is evident through my many posts on the forums and this subreddit whenever discussing of user votes for choosing mods, admins, and other various decisions regarding the server have come up. I am bringing this up, not because I want a lynching or to single anyone out, but because I want to see the admins and mods take a step forward in transparency.

 

I have been disappointed, but I'm not leaving. To be perfectly blunt, staff drama does not affect how much fun I have logging in and playing CTF, hunting for Unity's sponge, building UMC, and modreqing my griefed farms and murdered mooshrooms for the hundredth time. All your drama doesn't change that I have ridiculous plans for the next several revs and not one second of playing on the server has ever been affected by the personal issues between mods and admins.

 

It's been more than a week since the leak of quite a lot of information regarding specific instances of admin and mod interactions between themselves. While it was obviously cherry-picked to make a point, it was still very shocking to the userbase. Never, in the entire time playing on this server, would I have ever expected any admins and mods to treat each other so passive-aggressively and cruelly just because their opinions weren't uniformly shared. It was utterly disgusting to read what was linked.

 

Many of us think highly of the staff for the work they put in towards the server. This post has absolutely nothing to do with that work. It has to do with people being horrible to each other.

 

Not one mod, admin, or any other staff of any sort has made any comment on it. While I can understand the desire to minimize drama, I would expect at least a comment to the tune of "these issues do not reflect the day to day interactions among staff" or "while this may seem like a large problem, these were isolated incidents". The lack of these reassurances or any sort of visible action on behalf of the staff doesn't make these doubts go away.

 

Keeping the non-staff in the dark about this does not seem like the way to go. I have no intention of leaving the server, and I'm looking forward to the new rev. However, I think this needed to be brought up. I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting for a head admin to step forward and say something, even if it's just the expected "this is embarrassing, and we're sorry it exploded into something so ugly, and we're looking into preventing it from happening again" sort of spiel.

 

I'm sure many of us still hope that the admins and mods will take the recent events as a learning moment and try to be better to each other. This is a server for a game. Passive aggressiveness, venting on each other, bullying, and all that nonsense aren't needed and are far more toxic than anything else I've witnessed on the servers.

 

Even if the staff have made the decision not to respond or bring up this incident, I still hope each of you looks at your own actions and considers, personally, "what can I do or not do to prevent this next time?" I will not be affected one bit by whether or not you guys decide to change how you treat each other. I just hope that you guys take this as a request to acknowledge this problem and deal with it.

[ROCKONN]

After a little investigating, as I haven't been around for a few weeks, caught myself up on the situation. So, to summarrize, Tharine left their position because they felt it was ruining their gameplay. Perfectly fine. Tharine then felt that they should divulge private conversations between other staff members concerning the community. Things that we don't keep a secret, but keep out of the normal view to keep people happy. Sounds rough when I say it like that, that Admin/Mod chat is just a place for staff members rip on other people, criticize them, plot to keep them from attaining certain facualties, mwuhahaha.

 

Yeah. No. Not at all.

 

Firstly, allow me to acknowledge that that isn't what you're saying at all, and that I respect your initiative to dive into what you see as an irrational secret shared between the staff members of the Nerd.nu community.

Secondly, allow me to state that these are all my own thoughts on the matter, and while some of them may be the case, I have no current way of determining if that is the case.

 

The admin/mod discussion areas, be they on the forums, in IRC, on Mumble, or in any other facualty are no different than the private message function that everyone else has, with the minor exception of the formating. Their purpose is to talk on a personal and professional level about the community at large, the servers, the day to day maintainance, to hold private conversations between staff members and players in sticky situations, and to solve problems before they become larger ones that could threaten the stability of the various facualties of the Nerd.nu community. They are kept private for various reasons: to prevent flame wars (as many people would assume), to prevent the leak of personal data and/or access to various non-standard facualties, to ensure that friendships aren't compromised in the course of performing the responsibilities of a staff member, and many other reasons that I simply cannot at this moment think of. There aren't any conspiracies. There aren't any plots against certain players. There are personal discussions, and there are professional discussions.

 

As for the recent events: Tharine left on their own accord. The one thing about being a "staff" member that almost EVERYONE seems to forget is that we are PLAYERS FIRST. If we feel like we cannot/do not want to perform our mod duties, and that we'd like to just play the game, we do. Tharine allowed themself to get wrapped up in their position, and burnt themself out. They then, in their stupor, decided that they would violate the trust of every IRC user, specifically the staff users, and divulge what should have been kept between professionals: A personal conversation about a professional situation that had already been concluded. The sole purpose for Tharine even speaking in that conversation was to plant their own views on the page, and to attempt to cause disorder over a matter that had already been decided upon.

 

To put it bluntly: to stir up shit, and to frame themself as a hero of the people, champion of justice, whatever you want to call it. What I call it? Being a dick.

 

The disscussion shown in the leaked thread were again, personal opinions- just as this (what I'm writing) is. Sure, there's facts in there, but it's not pure facts. There's emotion here, mainly directed toward Tharine for showing their own immaturity, violating the trust of the people who keep our community safe/running, and again, just being a dick.

The point I'd like to stress here, despite going off on a tangent, is that we're not some dark cult working the fabric of virtual reality into our own pair of evil undies- we're a group, with a system of checks and balances, that chooses to keep some matters private to protect others/the server. We're also people. Some of us like to take a piss at some other people, but that's our own business. Some of us have signifigant reasons for believing that others aren't mature enough for certain positions, but that's our own business. Some of us don't like that we're outvoted on changes to the forums, or that we weren't around when the new version was being tested, or that we want to drive players away after we've burnt ourselves out working for the benefit of other people, or whatever Tharine's exact reason for leaving was, but in addition to that being our/their own business, we don't compromise our morals, values, rules, or the trust between ourselves/the community.

 

There you have it, a moderator's honest opinion and view on the matter of Tharine leaving/leaking private information, which is still being spread to the public. If the matter discussed in the leaked logs hadn't been about a resolved issue and (my own wording) an immature, irrational, selfish little runt trying to take down the pillars of the community on their way out, say it'd been a complete blast of every recorded discussion, including something about a staff member. Personal information. Say that they'd come down with a disease, that they wouldn't be around for much longer, etc etc. They wouldn't want their personal information being spread.

 

Now, to my knowledge, no such situation exists, but the point stands. Not saying "HERR DERR, STOP READIN OUR PERSONAL STUFF BECAUSE WE DERNT LIKE IT." Saying to keep in mind that you're going to read, or have already read, personal discussions between other players. Ask yourself, seriously, if what you're doing is right in ANY fashion. Sure, you're curious, but some stuff is best left private.

 

Blog responsibly.

[Zuziza]

There's been quite a few topics brought up on the forums and subreddit in the past few months regarding how moderating is done, how bans are used and handled, whether the servers should be more democratic, how to deal with "toxic players", etc. While not directly related, Tharine's recent subreddit post announcing that she was leaving included links to several documents and screenshots showing admin and moderator behavior in their private channels. Some of it was discussions on the issues that had been brought up before, and some of the discussions had been completely unknown to non-staff.  

 

In summary, it was a window to several scenes of uncensored staff drama. Much of it was incredibly disappointing to read.  

 

This thread was a response to the lack of any action or statements by the staff. Obviously not everyone is up to date, especially since it's September, but the lack of any word from the staff on the incident is disheartening. 

[Sapphric]

If there's any drama between individual admins and mods, that's their issue. You seem to be implying some great rift between two factions that simply does not exist.

[Zuziza]

I am not trying to imply their are any factions at all. I am pointing out that the behavior of individuals acting this way towards each other is horrible.  

 

What I'd like to see is how the staff will handle this sort of thing. The rule against being an asshole has been on the servers for a very long time. Seeing the staff treat each other this way, even if the incidents were singled out, is not something players expect. I'm not looking to see something like a mod police or even repercussions for what happened. What I'd like is for the people involved to acknowledge that such behavior is detrimental to themselves, others, and getting work done. 

[ROCKONN]

I hear what you're saying, but the way I understand it is that you lack to knowledge that staff members are players, PEOPLE. We aren't robots. We hold professional and personal conversations out of the public eye, to voice our individual concerns and our professional opinions. We're capable of putting aside our personal concerns for the good of everyone else. Please take the time to read through the first response I posted, then consider what you're really asking.

[ROCKONN]

On an related note, some of us are complete asses at times. Some of us are major pricks. Some of us decide to act on those feelings, and others have the composure to resist slapping the others in the face. Sue us, we're human.

[MasterCommaThe]

Zuziza, I affirm to you that your admins and mods do our best to act civil both privately and publicly. We don't always succeed, and there are almost always consequences for public incidents.

Tharines exposure of private chat logs is an example of a public incident, and the above comments stress the staffs' concern and determination to prevent it in the future. We believe that is far greater of an issue than any concern Tharine brought up as it does give our ability to actually serve the community.

Thank you for requesting a discussion on this topic that is your concern. I think being open to these questions is one of our best steps to transparency. :-)

[MasterCommaThe]

*affect our ability

[Draykhar]

 To start, I'd like to adress ROCKONN:

 

Judging by your post, I would like to assume you've rarely, if ever, actually interacted with Tharine. After playing on these servers with her, from clanmates, to moderators to admins both for eight revs, I think I can speak with a little credibility that Tharine was not  "an immature, irrational, selfish little runt trying to take down the pillars of the community on their way out". To say such of her casts all others in a foul light.

 

Passing beyond that.

 

Tharine dedicated countless hours to this community, her commitment to the Survival server is a large reason many of the players there stayed. She pushed through numerous changes to the server the last few revs, and has always willing to help resolve issues within the server. No one ever had issue contacting Tharine with their concerns. She was always open to suggestions on any part of how Survival works, and did what she could to change it. While Survival (and this community as a whole) still has plenty of room for improvement, Tharine laid much of the groundwork, repaired some of the cracks in it's foundation, patched up the walls, and opened what so many are considering to be Pandora's Box on the way out the door.

 

Tharine brought forth concerns that  many others, both players and staff, have been bringing forth for a while. The only thing /new/ within it is her actual leaving. This post has become a focal point of many of the issues within the past few months. These concerns are nothing new. Is this community perfect? No. Absolutely not, as no community is perfect - there is always something we can work towards improving.

 

The nerd community has changed a lot since when I started playing here, and I can imagine had undergone much change between then and its founding. Judging by the levels of dissent and emigration, I'd say we're due for some changes.  What? I'm not 100% sure, but we've got to orientate ourselves towards a goal. C and S's numbers have been steadily declining, let's look at fixing that.

Our player-base has changed, and the current player-base is looking for a transparent administration where they feel their input is of value.  As staff, we are obligated to the player-base. Not in that we owe them something, but rather it is our duty to work towards making the servers an enjoyable place to play.

 

The current administration generally tends to work pretty well together , but certainly has worlds of room for improvement. Half of us (myself included, sorry) aren't here for days at a time - this puts way too much work on the few who remain and they suffer from burnout. We don't use all of our channels of communication correctly - whether it be appropriate conversation in IRC, or properly dispersing critical information. 

 

We've got some work to do.

[Synergetrick]

To start, I'd like to adress ROCKONN:

 

Judging by your post, I would like to assume you've rarely, if ever, actually interacted with Tharine. After playing on these servers with her, from clanmates, to moderators to admins both for eight revs, I think I can speak with a little credibility that Tharine was not  "an immature, irrational, selfish little runt trying to take down the pillars of the community on their way out". To say such of her casts all others in a foul light.

 

Passing beyond that.

 

Tharine dedicated countless hours to this community, her commitment to the Survival server is a large reason many of the players there stayed. She pushed through numerous changes to the server the last few revs, and has always willing to help resolve issues within the server. No one ever had issue contacting Tharine with their concerns. She was always open to suggestions on any part of how Survival works, and did what she could to change it. While Survival (and this community as a whole) still has plenty of room for improvement, Tharine laid much of the groundwork, repaired some of the cracks in it's foundation, patched up the walls, and opened what so many are considering to be Pandora's Box on the way out the door.

 

Tharine brought forth concerns that  many others, both players and staff, have been bringing forth for a while. The only thing /new/ within it is her actual leaving. This post has become a focal point of many of the issues within the past few months. These concerns are nothing new. Is this community perfect? No. Absolutely not, as no community is perfect - there is always something we can work towards improving.

 

The nerd community has changed a lot since when I started playing here, and I can imagine had undergone much change between then and its founding. Judging by the levels of dissent and emigration, I'd say we're due for some changes.  What? I'm not 100% sure, but we've got to orientate ourselves towards a goal. C and S's numbers have been steadily declining, let's look at fixing that.

Our player-base has changed, and the current player-base is looking for a transparent administration where they feel their input is of value.  As staff, we are obligated to the player-base. Not in that we owe them something, but rather it is our duty to work towards making the servers an enjoyable place to play.

 

The current administration generally tends to work pretty well together , but certainly has worlds of room for improvement. Half of us (myself included, sorry) aren't here for days at a time - this puts way too much work on the few who remain and they suffer from burnout. We don't use all of our channels of communication correctly - whether it be appropriate conversation in IRC, or properly dispersing critical information. 

 

We've got some work to do.

 

To add to this with my own voice, when Tharine was first told she was becoming an S admin, she came to me and posed the question "how would you describe me?" I don't recall my exact response, however it certainly wasn't "an immature, irrational, selfish little runt trying to take down the pillars of the community on their way out". It was the opposite. Tharine was (as an admin, and still is as a person) incredibly level headed, did not play favourites (I was caught under fire from her more than once), and was, at least initially, determined to work to make Survival better. I couldn't have thought of a better candidate; I was one of the people that suggested her way back when. I still can't think of a better duo than Draykhar and Tharine.

 

I feel that the quotation "It is not our mistakes that define who we are; it is how we recover from those mistakes" holds very strong relevance to this entire situation. As I said in my reddit post, the "moral panic" and "mass hysteria" were 100% caused by the initial creators of the content and posters of the posts, not those who collated it and put it on show alongside their opinions. Those are the people that stand up and say what the others are thinking.

 

MCPublic as a whole suffers from a community equivalent of hemispatial neglect. Hemispatial neglect is where someone has a brain injury or defect that causes them to "neglect" one side of their body or visual field. It’s not that the person is blind in their right eye, as apparently everything functions and is being processed by the brain from that side. It is simply that they don’t cognitively comprehend that side, but, when this fact is pointed out to them they also don’t comprehend that they don’t comprehend it. They’re just surprised that suddenly this event on the right side of their body happened. If you ask them why the didn't see that, they can have any reaction from anger to giving a confused but totally plausible explanation. They honestly just don’t see that anything is wrong, but they also kind of know something is wrong so need to justify what just happened. This is what happened here and every other time; it's written off as drama and disposed of into a memory hole.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Synergetrick

[tactical_spork]

I just want to say, to the people who just say "who cares, let's just play the game!" yes, this does not really affect most C or P player at all; if anything they see some of their beloved community members being pilloried and it's natural to come to their defence. But S has been in a bad sort for a long time, and when you see not only Tharine leave but a massive number of staple S players follow suit, I do think this matter need to be talked about so that whatever caused the mass exodus doesn't happen again.

 

That being said, I also do believe people need to be more courteous to each other when discussing this matter. Many of us have spent several thousands of hours on nerd.nu and when people have invested so much time and effort into something things can get really heated, but that really isn't an excuse to call each other names and point fingers. That'd just end up with a lot of bitterness on both sides and nothing being done, which is what's happening in the subreddit and why I think it's good that it's been x-posted to the forums (thanks Zuziza!).

[ROCKONN]

 

 To start, I'd like to adress ROCKONN:

 

Judging by your post, I would like to assume you've rarely, if ever, actually interacted with Tharine. After playing on these servers with her, from clanmates, to moderators to admins both for eight revs, I think I can speak with a little credibility that Tharine was not  "an immature, irrational, selfish little runt trying to take down the pillars of the community on their way out". To say such of her casts all others in a foul light.

Just to clarify, this is my default reaction to such persons who exhibit such behaviors in any context. Specifically, attempting to provoke/provoking others into acting in certain manners, casting themselves in certain lights to accomplish personal goals (usually to have a detrimental effect on others), and those whose sole intent is to stir up crap. The phrasing within the leaked discussion (as well as in the "goodbye" posting), the tactics employed within the "goodbye" posting, the total disregard for our rules (specifically divulging private information without consent of other parties), the post-Nerd context I've heard about Tharine, and past experiences have all drawn me to these conclusions.

Didn't personally know Tharine, had very few, if any interactions with them. However, I'm one to believe that ones actions, especially ones final actions, speak volumes for the person performing them.

[MasterCommaThe]

I do not know Tharine well myself, community consensus is that historically she has been anything but the qualities ROCKONN described. I believe her prior actions support that statement. Regardless of that, her final actions do fit perfectly within ROCKONN's description, and with nothing more to go on will be what we have to assume Tharine has become. This person does not have nerd.nu's best interests at heart, and has violated our trust deeply in her most recent actions. Hopefully, you will then understand if we consider any points made as part of this final derogatory action to be anathema.

[MasterCommaThe]

To clarify my perspective, her opinion no longer represents that of an admin, even a member of the servers, or even just some random person passing through, but rather someone who actively has sought to harm our community with every power we trusted her with. I consider your, our members, opinions to carry significantly much more weight in my decisions than Tharines at this point.

[CROCKODUCK]

Tharine was nothing but extraordinarily helpful to both the S server and the community and for both of you to call her out for revealing logs that shouldn't exist in the first place is really sad. I honestly expect alot more from staff. Sure you're players but again you're supposed to conduct yourself in a way that shows you're above all this drama and name calling.

 

edit* grammar 

Edited September 25, 2013 by CROCKODUCK

[Jauris]

The fact the ROCKONN and Comma don't understand what Tharine did when she left sort of perplexes me. Bringing up dirty laundry in the context of wanting to see change is absolutely NOT a bad thing. Tharine was a person who truly cared for these servers, more than I think most people know.

[WayneByNumbers]

Tharine was a person who truly cared for these servers, more than I think most people know.

 

When I read her post, I got the impression that that was much of her problem; she cared too much.  She cared about being an effective admin so much, she allowed her workload to get out of hand, such as people contacting her on non-nerd.nu channels (like Facebook and Steam) with nerd.nu issues; the best thing to do would probably have been to simply ignore those or give them some stock reply like, "If you have an MCPublic issue, please bring it up with me through server channels."  Apparently, she allowed her dedication to motivate her to indulge these intrusions instead, and I tend to think that had she not been rubbed so raw by all this, the posted conversation might not have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Also, concerning those logs themselves, I didn't really enjoy them, certainly, but I really didn't find any of it shocking either.  How did people think disagreements at the admin level were usually handled?  Around a hardwood conference table in a high-rise building overlooking some slick, modern skyline, all dressed in suits and ties and someone standing at the front with a whiteboard and pointer?  I've seen much worse, and don't think it's quite fair for people to hold the admin team to such an ivory standard as to be unable to believe that seeing them at their worst, in private, is not the best indicator of who they are, or how they administrate.  Perhaps being a moderator myself has given me a somewhat closer perspective on the fact that staff members are people, and not just people, but Internet People, like all of us here, subject to moods, imperfections, and emotions, and usually confined to seeing others as a simple line of text, devoid of things like tone of voice, body language, facial expressions, etc., that can significantly change any phrase's meaning.

 

Excuse me I need to go get more commas.

 

A lot of people seem to have ignored the fact that those logs reveal that the specific issues raised (that is, moderation permissions on the forums) were addressed almost immediately (if peevishly), and the resolution was mostly in favor of Tharine's expressed views.  In fact, I think she herself made one mistake (which I have observed to be a common one); she attempted to force her opponents to admit to being wrong immediately after the fact.  Does that ever end well?

 

Overall, her tone seemed very professional and stand-offish, and while you could arguably call that passive-aggressive, I do think that's a better way to channel one's anger than name-calling.  I will say that I didn't find her to be the most antagonistic participant in those logs, and I've already expressed on the subreddit my relief that at least a few people involved were there trying to bring things back on track and the temperature down (and Tharine agreed with me on that). 

 

Dangit, out of parentheses.

 

Technically speaking, I think it is possible to say that Tharine broke a commonly understood trust (though I admit I have never seen the policy in writing myself) that staff-only conversations/deliberations should not be made available to non-staff without some kind of admin approval, and I kind of wish she hadn't made that post for the sake of the heated arguments it seems to have engendered.  I do note that she was willing to at least make overtures of neutrality (in a world of text, that goes a long way), and has expressed dismay that the resulting turbulence has reached the degree it has.  Even so, I believe she could have handled her issues in a gentler way, and I still think that, had she not let her job as admin ruin the game and the community so much for her, she probably would have.

 

There's a bug on my screen (really).  Shoo!

 

In conclusion, I think the whole argument has become too polarized (anyone surprised?).  I find it uncharitable to refer to Tharine as a "runt," and unreasonable to think that occasional friction between staff members "shouldn't exist in the first place."  Either way, though, this discussion does exist, and I'm getting sick of the past, and would like to see more talk of what the future will hold, what will happen/be done, and to heck with whatever "prompted" it.

[Zuziza]

I feel like this discussion has turned into an argument over whether Tharine alone is a good or bad influence on the server, and it's utterly ignoring the behaviors and attitudes exhibited by other staff members in the logs, as well as since this all came to light. 

 

It's not as simple as people losing their tempers. If it's so human, so normal, then why is there not a correlating change to server rules to remove the "don't be a dick" rule? Obviously, it's because it is there for a reason, and that reason is that there will be points that interventions are necessary to prevent something from turning incredibly ugly. 

 

The fact that none of the staff here seem to think that is necessary for their own interactions, even after this public incident, just comes off as hypocritical.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Zuziza

[SpiderMan]

 

When I read her post, I got the impression that that was much of her problem; she cared too much.  She cared about being an effective admin so much, she allowed her workload to get out of hand, such as people contacting her on non-nerd.nu channels (like Facebook and Steam) with nerd.nu issues; the best thing to do would probably have been to simply ignore those or give them some stock reply like, "If you have an MCPublic issue, please bring it up with me through server channels."  Apparently, she allowed her dedication to motivate her to indulge these intrusions instead, and I tend to think that had she not been rubbed so raw by all this, the posted conversation might not have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Also, concerning those logs themselves, I didn't really enjoy them, certainly, but I really didn't find any of it shocking either.  How did people think disagreements at the admin level were usually handled?  Around a hardwood conference table in a high-rise building overlooking some slick, modern skyline, all dressed in suits and ties and someone standing at the front with a whiteboard and pointer?  I've seen much worse, and don't think it's quite fair for people to hold the admin team to such an ivory standard as to be unable to believe that seeing them at their worst, in private, is not the best indicator of who they are, or how they administrate.  Perhaps being a moderator myself has given me a somewhat closer perspective on the fact that staff members are people, and not just people, but Internet People, like all of us here, subject to moods, imperfections, and emotions, and usually confined to seeing others as a simple line of text, devoid of things like tone of voice, body language, facial expressions, etc., that can significantly change any phrase's meaning.

 

Excuse me I need to go get more commas.

 

A lot of people seem to have ignored the fact that those logs reveal that the specific issues raised (that is, moderation permissions on the forums) were addressed almost immediately (if peevishly), and the resolution was mostly in favor of Tharine's expressed views.  In fact, I think she herself made one mistake (which I have observed to be a common one); she attempted to force her opponents to admit to being wrong immediately after the fact.  Does that ever end well?

 

Overall, her tone seemed very professional and stand-offish, and while you could arguably call that passive-aggressive, I do think that's a better way to channel one's anger than name-calling.  I will say that I didn't find her to be the most antagonistic participant in those logs, and I've already expressed on the subreddit my relief that at least a few people involved were there trying to bring things back on track and the temperature down (and Tharine agreed with me on that). 

 

Dangit, out of parentheses.

 

Technically speaking, I think it is possible to say that Tharine broke a commonly understood trust (though I admit I have never seen the policy in writing myself) that staff-only conversations/deliberations should not be made available to non-staff without some kind of admin approval, and I kind of wish she hadn't made that post for the sake of the heated arguments it seems to have engendered.  I do note that she was willing to at least make overtures of neutrality (in a world of text, that goes a long way), and has expressed dismay that the resulting turbulence has reached the degree it has.  Even so, I believe she could have handled her issues in a gentler way, and I still think that, had she not let her job as admin ruin the game and the community so much for her, she probably would have.

 

There's a bug on my screen (really).  Shoo!

 

In conclusion, I think the whole argument has become too polarized (anyone surprised?).  I find it uncharitable to refer to Tharine as a "runt," and unreasonable to think that occasional friction between staff members "shouldn't exist in the first place."  Either way, though, this discussion does exist, and I'm getting sick of the past, and would like to see more talk of what the future will hold, what will happen/be done, and to heck with whatever "prompted" it.

 

According to her leaving thread, she still had the trust of the s players, who's trust do you think she broke? please elaborate.

 

Which of her ideas were actually implemented?

Edited September 26, 2013 by gsand

[SpiderMan]

I feel like this discussion has turned into an argument over whether Tharine alone is a good or bad influence on the server, and it's utterly ignoring the behaviors and attitudes exhibited by other staff members in the logs, as well as since this all came to light. 

 

It's not as simple as people losing their tempers. If it's so human, so normal, then why is there not a correlating change to server rules to remove the "don't be a dick" rule? Obviously, it's because it is there for a reason, and that reason is that there will be points that interventions are necessary to prevent something from turning incredibly ugly. 

 

The fact that none of the staff here seem to think that is necessary for their own interactions, even after this public incident, just comes off as hypocritical.

 

Yes, a lot of players believe that there is a double standard between actions made by admins and those done by players.

 

The people who feel this way always seem to reference the following ban appeal.

 

http://nerd.nu/archives/index.php?p=/discussion/18332/randomdoor-cyotie911/p1

[SpiderMan]

To clarify my perspective, her opinion no longer represents that of an admin, even a member of the servers, or even just some random person passing through, but rather someone who actively has sought to harm our community with every power we trusted her with. I consider your, our members, opinions to carry significantly much more weight in my decisions than Tharines at this point.

 

How is she seeking to harm the community, please explain the words you are typing.

Your attempt at  character assasination is extremely obvious, by the way.

You've provided no real reason for people to dislike her other than the fact that she posted logs of a video game server admin chat log.

 

Also, I've known Tharine for considerably longer than you have, who are you to try to dictate my or anyone else's opinions about her.

 

Also, this isn't the first time you've said trash like this, the first time you said it was in IRC, and you got called out immediately.

Edited September 26, 2013 by gsand

[TheRandomnatrix]

Most of this discussion seems to be heated speculation on what certain staff did or said, what their motives were, or what kind of person they are. It's great that some of you feel so strongly about this, but I don't feel in the long run that it's productive to discuss. In order to properly address the issues people are facing, I want to see a clear consensus on the exact problems we need to work out  and focus on before even attempting to move forward. Otherwise it's just going to be a bunch of misguided bickering and drama. I don't care if it sounds blatantly obvious to you or anyone else what the exact problems are. I have yet to see an agreement on the problem at hand and want to see that done.

 

 

That being said, I also do believe people need to be more courteous to each other when discussing this matter. Many of us have spent several thousands of hours on nerd.nu and when people have invested so much time and effort into something things can get really heated, but that really isn't an excuse to call each other names and point fingers. That'd just end up with a lot of bitterness on both sides and nothing being done, which is what's happening in the subreddit and why I think it's good that it's been x-posted to the forums (thanks Zuziza!).

 

 

I fully agree and expect everyone involved to be civil about it. We've had enough drama in recent times. Now it's time to move on from that.

 

So what exactly is the elephant in the room:

 

Are people unhappy that they feel out of the loop? How can we as staff better keep people informed and keep the community involved and feeling they have a say in things and help remove this conceived "us vs them" mentality?

 

Is the community simply angry at the actions of a few staff members and not the entirety of it? How do we plan to work it out with those individuals and prevent incidents like this from happening again? Can we even prevent incidents like this? If it can't be prevented or addressed entirely is there really a reason for getting the community involved?

 

Discuss.

[MasterCommaThe]

I got your Commas right here!

 
 
Excuse me I need to go get more commas.
 

[MasterCommaThe]

How is she seeking to harm the community, please explain the words you are typing.

Your attempt at  character assasination is extremely obvious, by the way.

You've provided no real reason for people to dislike her other than the fact that she posted logs of a video game server admin chat log.

 

Also, I've known Tharine for considerably longer than you have, who are you to try to dictate my or anyone else's opinions about her.

 

Also, this isn't the first time you've said trash like this, the first time you said it was in IRC, and you got called out immediately.

gsand, you're correct that I have said this before in IRC, and I found myself incapable of responding to questions there in a timely manner that that medium usually follows. I posted these comments here to put my observations and opinions on record as a better way to responsibly discuss them.

 

In response to your request for further explanaiton of harm, Tharine's unilateral choice to post private chat logs has taken away a secure  and private location for staff to have discussions. We served you better because we had a private place where we could develop ideas together, which we could not on our own. It helped us form a strong sub-community within nerd.nu's staff. We also (and primarily) served you better by having a secure place to discuss server security preventing threats from damaging the community. Without these being assured I do not feel we serve you as well as we once did. I call taking that away "harming the community".

 

Unless I missed something I didn't dictate any player's opinion, in fact I stressed how your opinion matters to me in the post you responded to. Though you might believe my opinion is "trash", I am open to having my opinion changed, and the only way to do that is by discussing it.

I take your, and other members opinions that Tharine has long been one of our most upstanding, and hard working admins very seriously. I don't believe that history has a direct bearing on how she is likely to act towards the community at the moment, her character, given her action which started this discussion. Her noted history will affect how I value any future communications and actions she has with the server and myself and is not to be disregarded.

Her actions are far more harmful in my opinion than any of the issues she brought up and validated by that action. I think we simply disagree on that point and perhaps my above explanation of "harm" has changed your opinion. I do think her issues should be addressed and discussed, but preventing the associated actions holds priority for me in the immediate future.

I am not seeking to assassinate anyone's character. As bad as Tharine's actions were in my opinion, I still think there are ways I could welcome her back to the community eventually. I'm definitely not seeking to insult you, Tharine, or anyone, and so I hope I have been direct in responding to your issues.