JohnAdams1735 Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 This is all getting silly. When many of us joined these servers, they were stable and stong places to play with friends. At some point this last year, it has evolved far from that. It's always is frustrating to look at the small percentage of players who have control over everything. People have always kept quiet, fearing a ban, fearing people thinking poorly of them. As far as I am aware, these servers were built to be simple, fast and friendly minecraft servers. It is a shame that it has had to come to this point, where it has become almost the opposite. People should have the ability to talk to admins, without fearing that they will be banned. Back in 2011, you could ask a head admin about an issue you had, and they would do their best to resolve it. Admins and mods alike, they always had your best interests at heart. My experience as a player in 2011 was actually nearly the opposite. Pilot scared me a lot back then, and I was very awed and intimated by tebok (who thor'd a lot of people on C when they deserved it). I hardly knew the tech staff at that time. I knew the mods better and they were friendly though. I know for a fact what Pilot and tebok did for the servers and I have no doubt they always kept the servers' best interests at heart. I guess I just always thought of myself as an approachable person. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansihe Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 My experience as a player in 2011 was actually nearly the opposite. Pilot scared me a lot back then, and I was very awed and intimated by tebok (who thor'd a lot of people on C when they deserved it). I hardly knew the tech staff at that time. I knew the mods better and they were friendly though. I know for a fact what Pilot and tebok did for the servers and I have no doubt they always kept the servers' best interests at heart. I guess I just always thought of myself as an approachable person. What does it matter if you think you're approachable if many others are convinced otherwise? 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAdams1735 Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 What does it matter if you think you're approachable if many others are convinced otherwise? I'm not the only head. If you don't like me, take your comments/concerns etc. to another head. You can be sure they're not going to drop an issue you bring up to them just because of me (if you're concerned I have undue influence on the other heads). Those who do find me approachable can carry on as usual if they'd like. I'll listen and crusade as I always have. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synergetrick Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) So what exactly is the point of this topic? You were never apologising for your actions, you're apologising for the reaction to your reaction to your actions being made public. You haven't responded to any legitimate post in about the incidents, merely one criticising the thread. This is what people get when they approach you with concerns. Just as I said, you write it off as drama, or take it as a personal insult.The fact you separate the two categories and tell one to "take it elsewhere" while the super best-friends club can continue business as usual is not the correct practice for a head admin or a leader of any community. This is something I have quite a bit of experience in from my own endeavours - having people who think you're unapproachable is bad. Having the majority of the playerbase think that you're not only unapproachable, but unpredictable and misguided as well is a gigantic flashing sign saying "step down, step away". If the playerbase doesn't trust you, how can you believe that you leading the community is a good fit? Edited October 1, 2013 by Synergetrick 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAdams1735 Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 So what exactly is the point of this topic? You were never apologising for your actions, you're apologising for the reaction to your reaction to your actions being made public. You haven't responded to any legitimate post in about the incidents, merely one criticising the thread. This is what people get when they approach you with concerns. Just as I said, you write it off as drama, or take it as a personal insult. The fact you separate the two categories and tell one to "take it elsewhere" while the super best-friends club can continue business as usual is not the correct practice for a head admin or a leader of any community. This is something I have quite a bit of experience in from my own endeavours - having people who think you're unapproachable is bad. Having the majority of the playerbase think that you're not only unapproachable, but unpredictable and misguided as well is a gigantic flashing sign saying "step down". It's clear that you're only maintaining your position out of spite. The point was yes, to apologize for my verbal flair up in irc. I've never pretended it to be anything more, though I did ramble... The fact you call the heads "the super best friends club" shows more about your personal bias than reality. Ditto applies to anything about staff favoritism. I can think of several examples where staff are more severely punished than their player counterpart in an incident - as well they often should be as they are entrusted with certain powers and do represent the servers to the playerbase. "Having a majority of the playerbase think that you're not only..." Without arguing what constitutes a majorty here and how we could ever measure it, I've not seen "a majority" who distrust me. Even the petition to remove cyotie and myself was downvoted into oblivion very quickly. The sense I get is people would rather us learn from this but move on. I'm not here for spite; do not put words in my mouth or ever to presume to speak for me or understand my mindset. I'm still around because I care about MCP. Recent major examples are that I lead the staff meeting in June the day after my step-Dad died. I kept up as best I could behind an irc/mumble/minecraft-blocking firewall from my hospital bed. I do what I do, as always, to offer what measly help I can. As far as the -admin log you linked is concerned, I think it's an example of how well the staff works. I do something, Tharine takes issue with it, we discuss and present our arguments, and the matter is resolved. I was stubborn, for sure, but heaven forbid someone have to work hard to do what they think is right! Tharine won the argument, by the way, as I removed my post. It was out of line, though it had felt good to vent after a long staff meeting I spent all day and then some working on to make it happen since Lude had recently quit and dropped it in my lap. I learned, though, that not everything should be circle-jerk material. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobylane Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 How many people can have the same identical personal bias before it needs to be called something else? Comparing personal bias to reality is just the same as calling it unimportant, childish or drama. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAdams1735 Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 How many people can have the same identical personal bias before it needs to be called something else? Comparing personal bias to reality is just the same as calling it unimportant, childish or drama. I mainly meant that the heads are not, nor have they ever been since I've been one, 100% agreeing on everything. We argue too, and several times call each other out when someone is overreacting. My most recent talk with Barlimore in Diplomacy in mumble is a good example. We're friendly, mature, courteious, and respectful to each other as human beings and yes, I've partied with steve on mumble. I've had intellectual conversations with Barlimore. But we are not "buddy buddy" as it were. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synergetrick Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) The fact you call the heads "the super best friends club" shows more about your personal bias than reality. Ditto applies to anything about staff favoritism. I can think of several examples where staff are more severely punished than their player counterpart in an incident - as well they often should be as they are entrusted with certain powers and do represent the servers to the playerbase. I wasn't referring to the head admins, and it's very difficult to infer that from my post. I was referring to the people you referenced here: Those who do find me approachable can carry on as usual if they'd like. I'll listen and crusade as I always have. "Having a majority of the playerbase think that you're not only..." Without arguing what constitutes a majorty here and how we could ever measure it, I've not seen "a majority" who distrust me. Even the petition to remove cyotie and myself was downvoted into oblivion very quickly. The sense I get is people would rather us learn from this but move on. Reddit, as you well know, is a terrible platform for discussion. It's also quite terrible for vote-based ratings. Unlike the forums, the votes dictate whether or not content is ever going to be seen, with the first few votes being downvotes weighing a lot heavier than 50 / 200 being downvotes. Using a reddit thread as a metric for that is a very bad idea, because it simply doesn't add up. I'm not here for spite; do not put words in my mouth or ever to presume to speak for me or understand my mindset. I'm still around because I care about MCP. Recent major examples are that I lead the staff meeting in June the day after my step-Dad died. I kept up as best I could behind an irc/mumble/minecraft-blocking firewall from my hospital bed. I do what I do, as always, to offer what measly help I can. While I did edit this particular part because I myself thought I'd misworded what I meant (and I do apologise for that last sentence, it misrepresented my thought process), I'll respond to you in kind. Firstly, this entire incident was caused in part by you putting words in the mouth of, and trying to pretend to understand the mindset of, a server admin who you had made so uncomfortable that she had to share the experiences with the playerbase. Secondly, I'm going to re-refer you to c45y's comment. As you seem to have jumped past my original post, be it because it was too long or too analytical, here's a link again. There comes a point where your ability to do your job as a head admin is not determined by your own ability, but the number of people who actively listen to you, from what I see on the sidelines that number is dwindling. Perhaps I watch the wrong program, the state of the mod team on that front is nearly completely hidden from 'normal users'. Whatever the case your ability to perform in your role should determine your continuation in it As far as the -admin log you linked is concerned, I think it's an example of how well the staff works. I do something, Tharine takes issue with it, we discuss and present our arguments, and the matter is resolved. I was stubborn, for sure, but heaven forbid someone have to work hard to do what they think is right! Tharine won the argument, by the way, as I removed my post. It was out of line, though it had felt good to vent after a long staff meeting I spent all day and then some working on to make it happen since Lude had recently quit and dropped it in my lap. I learned, though, that not everything should be circle-jerk material. While I appreciate that this was a learning experience for you, it shouldn't have been a rude awakening that "not everything is circlejerk material". This is especially significant when you make reference to Tharine's age, stating that she needs to "age ten years". What's more, the fact you refer to Lude's quitting as dropping it in your lap alone indicates that despite this, you didn't delegate or ask for help particularly often, if at all. I may have been listening to the wrong streams, but I don't recall conversation ever coming up where you asked for assistance. I should add that of all things, the fact that Tharine "won the argument" is of non-relevance. I do ask that if you have the time, you go back through and respond to my original post appropriately. Since it's currently the third-highest voted post on this entire forums, with upvotes from players and staff alike from all servers, I believe it indicates that I'm clearly on the right track with my questions and concerns. Edited October 1, 2013 by Synergetrick 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderMan Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 It is an apology. I'm not trying to share the blame with anyone, nor do I hold Tharine fully responsible for the community's reactions and words. But it would also be insulting her intelligence to say she had no idea what her post would do in the community. She's not stupid and has seen more than a fair share of toxicity and drama. The 'rage post' was a test intended just as I describe it. I'm sorry you cannot or do not believe me. I could call witnesses, but I doubt you'd believe them either if you don't believe me. What about what the people who said what they did, shouldn't they be held liable for their own words, the impact to the community? Explain toxicity? Who is being toxic? Is the person whistleblowing worse than what they're whistleblowing about? also, what about the issues that were raised in the posts? 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolgamerovr90 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Please explain to me what part of my post you disagree with. Yep, CharGB has it 100% Correct, it is fault on my part, Sorry It also looks as if it is an upvote now 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAdams1735 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Firstly, this entire incident was caused in part by you putting words in the mouth of, and trying to pretend to understand the mindset of, a server admin who you had made so uncomfortable that she had to share the experiences with the playerbase.Secondly, I'm going to re-refer you to c45y's comment. As you seem to have jumped past my original post, be it because it was too long or too analytical, here's a link again. While I appreciate that this was a learning experience for you, it shouldn't have been a rude awakening that "not everything is circlejerk material". This is especially significant when you make reference to Tharine's age, stating that she needs to "age ten years". What's more, the fact you refer to Lude's quitting as dropping it in your lap alone indicates that despite this, you didn't delegate or ask for help particularly often, if at all. I may have been listening to the wrong streams, but I don't recall conversation ever coming up where you asked for assistance. I should add that of all things, the fact that Tharine "won the argument" is of non-relevance.I do ask that if you have the time, you go back through and respond to my original post appropriately. Since it's currently the third-highest voted post on this entire forums, with upvotes from players and staff alike from all servers, I believe it indicates that I'm clearly on the right track with my questions and concerns. I tried to understand her mindset, sure, it's called empathy. I do it professionally quite a bit, but I don't think I tried putting words in her mouth. The learning that not everything is circle jerk material is totally seperate from my comment that she needs to age ten years. The latter is a reference to the fact she allowed a game to bother her so much. I'd just come off a rather rude awakening myself that MC is a speck of dust stacked against something slowly killing me from the inside. It was an on-the-fly comment that some people, including me, need to streighten out their priorities and calm down. Something I'm still working on. You conclude from one insident I never asked for help? How does that make sense? In this case, I'd been prepping so thrawn and steve didn't, and iirc Barlimore was brand new at the time. Any of them probably would have done a stellar job, even better than I fumbled through it, but despite my personal circumstances it was I who had taken responsibility and it was I who lead the staff meeting. For the servers' best interest, I thought. Perhaps I was just all ego and misguided. Lastly, at the risk of making it Tharine vs John, just because she's the more public and vocal about it doesn't mean she didn't make me feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, un-listened to, etc. I just didn't complain about it and she beat me to it - not that I'd ever post something like that publicly - no. If I have a problem with someone, I say it to their face and talk with them about it. I did read your other post and will try to find the time to reply "appropriately" as you so demandingly implore me to... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnAdams1735 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 What about what the people who said what they did, shouldn't they be held liable for their own words, the impact to the community? Explain toxicity? Who is being toxic? Is the person whistleblowing worse than what they're whistleblowing about? also, what about the issues that were raised in the posts? Toxicity in general or in this context? I meant that she knows what toxic is as she has seen it. No one I reference in what you quoted is being toxic...No, usually not. Whistleblowing is sometimes the only way to get things out in the public. While the logs are not me at my best, however, they are... perhaps 4 conversations I've engaged in in the past 9 months. You see only the bad because that's all Tharine leaked. What about all the other conversations I've engaged in where I was the players' advocate, agreed with Tharine on an issue, or conducted myself 100% professionally? Did she leak those? Of course not, it wouldn't serve her point. I am merely suggesting that even if disturbing, the leaked logs are isolated incidents in a much longer line of normal behavior. I'm not a power crazy, hate-the-player, fount of staff favortism some fancy me to be. If I was, I trust the other admins would have asked me to leave long ago. I'be been repramanded, though, for two of the incidents and talked down/out into correcting my actions myself in at least one of the others. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four_Down Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 @MasterCommaThe Please explain what part of my post you disagree with. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterCommaThe Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 you have shown that your word is no longer one that can be trusted. I simply disagree and do trust her word, nothing really that needed to be expounded upon. I understand if you can't for your own reasons. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four_Down Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) I simply disagree and do trust her word, nothing really that needed to be expounded upon. I understand if you can't for your own reasons. Thanks for the reply! I understand Also, sorry if I came off slightly aggressive. Edited October 2, 2013 by Four_Down 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterCommaThe Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Thanks for the reply! I understand Also, sorry if I came off slightly aggressive. No problem at all, I thought you came off perfectly reasonable. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderMan Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 Toxicity in general or in this context? I meant that she knows what toxic is as she has seen it. No one I reference in what you quoted is being toxic... No, usually not. Whistleblowing is sometimes the only way to get things out in the public. While the logs are not me at my best, however, they are... perhaps 4 conversations I've engaged in in the past 9 months. You see only the bad because that's all Tharine leaked. What about all the other conversations I've engaged in where I was the players' advocate, agreed with Tharine on an issue, or conducted myself 100% professionally? Did she leak those? Of course not, it wouldn't serve her point. I am merely suggesting that even if disturbing, the leaked logs are isolated incidents in a much longer line of normal behavior. I'm not a power crazy, hate-the-player, fount of staff favortism some fancy me to be. If I was, I trust the other admins would have asked me to leave long ago. I'be been repramanded, though, for two of the incidents and talked down/out into correcting my actions myself in at least one of the others. Here are a few clarifications: Explain toxicity in the context it was originally brought up. Who do you think is or was being toxic and why? Are the issues raised in the post with or without any merit? What is your opinion on said issues? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synergetrick Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Here are a few clarifications: Explain toxicity in the context it was originally brought up. Who do you think is or was being toxic and why? Are the issues raised in the post with or without any merit? What is your opinion on said issues? Bumping to ensure that attention to this thread, and our posts with questions and concerns are not lost. Please respond. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderMan Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Rest assured friends, the concerns brought up in this thread are not being swept under the rug and/or ignored. ;D 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EeHee2000 Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) removed as fuck Edited March 25, 2015 by EeHee2000 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four_Down Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Guys, I've honestly fucking had enough of this bullshit. Can we all calm the fuck down and stop the unnecessary arguments here? This is starting to turn into a popularity party on many different levels and we all know it. I honestly don't think things needed to go this far. Whilst I am indeed appalled by what John's said recently, I'm also appalled at the fact that we haven't been able to control the situation as well as we usually have/could've. It's getting to the point where it's just droning on and on and on, for fucks sake. I'm not asking that we drop the matter, however I think we'd all appreciate for the pointless and non-achieving corrections, bump ins and easily avoided misunderstandings to stop. There's a bit too much input at the moment, really. Valid points are being raised and we all want to be a part of it, I know how it is. For now, I think we need to ease off a little and let things run their course. There is no "conspiracy" or "corruption". There needs to be no "rebellion". All we need at the moment is for some peace and motherfucking quiet. I'm not in any way asking you to shut up, or let it slide. But it's getting far too hectic. Try and understand what I'm saying, I mightn't have written this rant very well as I'm tired as Eeyore, but hopefully you understand me. For those of you about to click the Quote button and point out a mistake or error I made in this comment - move your mouse far away from it, my child. O_O Who was angry? Who was arguing? How has this gone "too far"? I personally don't see an apology and discussion as things going "too far", I see it as a step in the right direction to getting peoples concerns sorted out. In fact, your post is the only post I've felt is overly aggressive and rude so far. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderMan Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 I'm glad this topic and subsequent posts are here, for everyone's interests as some of the concerns raised have been stalling the community focus on other pressing matters and while I cannot speak for everyone, I've not come across any one person yet who doesn't have the same destination in mind. We'll work on getting there together, in other open topics like these. I agree, hope to see a follow up post in regards to this issue. ;D 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolgamerovr90 Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) O_O Who was angry? Who was arguing? How has this gone "too far"? I personally don't see an apology and discussion as things going "too far", I see it as a step in the right direction to getting peoples concerns sorted out. In fact, your post is the only post I've felt is overly aggressive and rude so far. I am just hopeful that this will come to an end, I know this thread is for JohnAdams1735's apology and any other questions on the topic, and that's all I hope it will be. Edited October 8, 2013 by coolgamerovr90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EeHee2000 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) O_O Who was angry? Who was arguing? How has this gone "too far"? I personally don't see an apology and discussion as things going "too far", I see it as a step in the right direction to getting peoples concerns sorted out. In fact, your post is the only post I've felt is overly aggressive and rude so far. You don't seem to be looking very far at all at what I said in my post. It's gone too far because one of the greatest admins we had left, a few of our best mods have left and many players have left all due to an incident that really shouldn't have happened. I'm not standing up for anyone here, except those actively working on solving it rather than countering every post by another player (default, mod or admin) and thus creating another small storm of confusion to be sorted out. You don't seem to have paid any attention at all to my post. If I recall correctly, there's been a lot of hate and over-the-top insults on the subreddit. However I do apologize for the aggressiveness of my post, I was just getting frustrated is all. Also, the points I made in my post weren't my directed on this thread at all - it was directed mainly at the subreddit and a few stray comments on the forums that only stir up shit. My post was directed at the majority of us involved in this, not this particular thread. I felt this the best place to post it, however, due to it being a big key point in solving all this. I honestly don't believe you if you're asking me whether anyone in the community has been upset or angry. Edited October 9, 2013 by EeHee2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unce Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 (edited) I did read your other post and will try to find the time to reply "appropriately" I would love to see a proper response to the issues brought up in this thread. Edited October 18, 2013 by unce 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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