Staff Members' Behavior in Ban Appeals

[HailSaban]

I've noticed twice now, firsthand, that there's a problem with how some of the staff handle ban appeals. Concerning ban appeals that specifically request another staff member's help, it doesn't seem uncommon, from my standpoint, that the staff asked to stay out of it actually handle it. Now, I've posted twice on other players' ban appeals. Yes, I do realize that there's a rule against that. However, I feel that if I don't have permission to post there, neither do the staff who were explicitly asked to not handle it. It was brought to my attention that one potential reason for such staff behavior is because of them wanting to convey the information of the ban and the rules broken. I can see how this would be fair, but if said information were needed, it would be much more reputable, to me at least, if they were to discuss it privately. I feel that this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

 

To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying that others should be able to post in ban appeals. That is a rule that needs to be upheld. However, the requests of the banned should be upheld as well.

[dizney07]

The problem with this is that players are banned by a single staff member who is normally the only one around whatever situation the ban is in. Because of this, it would be hard for another staff member to take over and reliably look into another ban, since they weren't actually around when the ban happened. I understand that some players may think that a moderator is biased towards/against them, but if another staff member takes over, it's likely that the original ban maker is going to be consulted to find out what happened either way.

[EeHee2000]

I've noticed a few times that relevant, crucial information posted by non-staff players in another player's appeal is often removed, however I thought there was an exception to stop that from happening. 
 

[HailSaban]

it's likely that the original ban maker is going to be consulted to find out what happened either way.

 

As per mentioned in my post.

 

It was brought to my attention that one potential reason for such staff behavior is because of them wanting to convey the information of the ban and the rules broken.

 

I do feel, as I also mentioned, that it should be private.

Edited July 29, 2014 by HailSaban

[Cyotie911]

I will make a statement regarding this a little later today, as I am currently on my phone and not going to type out a huge response on it.

[Cyotie911]

Okay, now for the post I promised.

 

As far as how a staff member acts within an appeal should always be professional.  If it starts to look as if an appeal is turning personal or other than professional, A Head Admin will deal with the matter.

 

As far as a player asking for another staff member to handle such appeal, this will not happen without a good reason.  A player that does not like a staff member is not a good enough reason to trouble someone else on staff with dealing with their appeal.  All of our staff members were made staff because they are trusted with the responsibilty to make sound decisions with the things they are tasked with dealing with.   This does not say that we are close minded enough not to listen to a players concerns.  If a player feels that an appeal was dealt with, in a way, that was unprofessional or unjust, they are welcome to Private Message a Head Admin on the forums and we will review the appeal.  However, formally requesting another staff memeber to handle the appeal should not be done in the appeal itself and will not happen until it has been made clear that the banning moderator will have some kind of bias or issue conducting himself in the appeal.  You can't show up to court and request a different judge because you dislike him or think he is to mean.  This is not how things work.  However, All issues will be happily looked into.

[Four_Down]

As far as a player asking for another staff member to handle such appeal, this will not happen without a good reason.  A player that does not like a staff member is not a good enough reason to trouble someone else on staff with dealing with their appeal.  All of our staff members were made staff because they are trusted with the responsibilty to make sound decisions with the things they are tasked with dealing with.   This does not say that we are close minded enough not to listen to a players concerns.  If a player feels that an appeal was dealt with, in a way, that was unprofessional or unjust, they are welcome to Private Message a Head Admin on the forums and we will review the appeal.  However, formally requesting another staff memeber to handle the appeal should not be done in the appeal itself and will not happen until it has been made clear that the banning moderator will have some kind of bias or issue conducting himself in the appeal.  You can't show up to court and request a different judge because you dislike him or think he is to mean.  This is not how things work.  However, All issues will be happily looked into.

I'm a little confused, are you saying that the player has to prove the handling moderator would be bias or otherwise unfit before someone else will handle the appeal? In the 'Staff Expectations' thread it still says every player has the right to have their appeal escalated, with no reasons specified?

 

"If at any point the banned player wishes to appeal the ban to someone higher up the chain, find a server admin of the server the player was banned on, or feel free to grab a head admin to take over the appeal. Every player has the right to appeal to an admin, do not deny them."

[Cyotie911]

I'm a little confused, are you saying that the player has to prove the handling moderator would be bias or otherwise unfit before someone else will handle the appeal? In the 'Staff Expectations' thread it still says every player has the right to have their appeal escalated, with no reasons specified?

 

"If at any point the banned player wishes to appeal the ban to someone higher up the chain, find a server admin of the server the player was banned on, or feel free to grab a head admin to take over the appeal. Every player has the right to appeal to an admin, do not deny them.[/size]"

No, not saying that at all. What I am saying is that they are free to contact a head admin outside of the ban appeal and the Head will look into their concern. I will have no problem turning a judgment around if it is spiteful or unjust. Any overturns or re considerations will be made public and added into the appeal. If a player would like to elevate a concern prior to appealing, I'll be more than happy to hear their concern and will determine if we think there would be any bias towards the appealer from the banning moderator. However, I'm not going to turn the ban appeals section into a circus by every person who appeals have their appeal handled by an admin if there isn't a legitimate reason to do so. Any of our staff should be able to conduct themselves professionally in ban appeals and show no bias towards anyone, If they should have a problem then I Would Ask That They Recuse Themselves From The situation. If there is a staff person that happens to act in any other manner than professional in an appeal, please bring it to the attention of a head admin immediately.

[Diznatch52]

Just to confirm, however, that if a player feels there will be bias in the appeal, he will not be rejected because the adminstaff don't necessarily feel that? What a player perceives and what the staff perceives can be very different.

[BeastBruiser]

If I understand Cyotie correctly, 

The player should make the appeal first and, if they feel they were unjustly treated in the appeal, then msg an admin to elevate it and ask for a revaluation.

[Diznatch52]

This is directly in opposition to what Four linked to.

[schererererer]

There's some ambiguity in the word appeal here: is it in reference to the 'ban appeal' itself, or an appeal in the conventional sense to the admins after a ruling by the banning moderator?

[Four_Down]

No, not saying that at all. What I am saying is that they are free to contact a head admin outside of the ban appeal and the Head will look into their concern. I will have no problem turning a judgment around if it is spiteful or unjust. Any overturns or re considerations will be made public and added into the appeal. If a player would like to elevate a concern prior to appealing, I'll be more than happy to hear their concern and will determine if we think there would be any bias towards the appealer from the banning moderator. However, I'm not going to turn the ban appeals section into a circus by every person who appeals have their appeal handled by an admin if there isn't a legitimate reason to do so. Any of our staff should be able to conduct themselves professionally in ban appeals and show no bias towards anyone, If they should have a problem then I Would Ask That They Recuse Themselves From The situation. If there is a staff person that happens to act in any other manner than professional in an appeal, please bring it to the attention of a head admin immediately.

Okay, thank you for clarifying :)

[Cyotie911]

Just to confirm, however, that if a player feels there will be bias in the appeal, he will not be rejected because the adminstaff don't necessarily feel that? What a player perceives and what the staff perceives can be very different.

What I said is that a Head admin will look into whatever problem that is brought to their attention. This doesn't mean that it will result in another staff member handling an appeal.

For instance, a player modifies another players build and didn't see it as griefing. They could think that staff member had a grudge on them for some reason and was further fueled by a ban for griefing. This player comes to me telling me that they plan to appeal shortly and request that another staff member handle their ban because they feel they were wrongly banned and that there is a grudge being held against them by the banning moderator.

This circumstance doesn't warrant another staff person handling this ban because the grounds of the ban were just, furthermore, if I seen no evidence that there is any bias having been shown to the banned person then there is no reason for me to believe that the banning moderator will be anything less than professional in the appeal. (We will take the time to explain this and why this is so to the appealer)

This is just a situation. Each situation that is brought to the heads will be determined on a case by case basis. So, in review, just because someone thinks there is a bias, doesn't mean that their case will be handled by someone other than your banning moderator. The banning moderator is always the best suites to handle the appeals since they were there to recollect the events that took place and will only be replaced if the situation requires that to happen.

[Diznatch52]

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with this, but it is still in opposition to the publicly stated policy as posted by four. It may be best to either stick by the old word of the Heads or formally change that to reflect the change in policy.

[Cyotie911]

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with this, but it is still in opposition to the publicly stated policy as posted by four. It may be best to either stick by the old word of the Heads or formally change that to reflect the change in policy.

For the record, what was quoted wasn't policy for the players. It was a document drafted to help staff members remember what all is expected of them as staff. That being stated, it now reflects this conversation.

[HailSaban]

Wow, this exploded a bit while I was away. In that regard, I apologize for my absence.

 

Cyotie, I understand that in some circumstances, it's pointless for there to be a request for an outside staff member to deal with a ban. However, I do feel that if a player requests for an alternate, whether it's necessary or not, they should get that right. If they feel that there's bias against them from their banner, whether there is or isn't, they have the right to have another user look at it.

 

I don't see ban appeals that request for other staff to help often, but when I do, I hope to see the staff professionally handle it, as requested.

[EeHee2000]

Do players have the right to ask for their appeal to be private? I never saw anything said about this and have wondered for a while now. 

If not, I think that should be an allowance. Whilst I understand that if this were to happen, many players would lose the formality and respect that they show in public appeals, but the actual nature of handling the appeal should be the same. If a banned player does something in their appeal that they wouldn't do in a public one, it should be dealt with the same way. 
Private means private, so obviously the banning staff member can't expose information from the thread, and it would be common sense for the player to do the same. 
 

Edited July 31, 2014 by EeHee2000

[HailSaban]

Do players have the right to ask for their appeal to be private? I never saw anything said about this and have wondered for a while now. 

If not, I think that should be an allowance. Whilst I understand that if this were to happen, many players would lose the formality and respect that they show in public appeals, but the actual nature of handling the appeal should be the same. If a banned player does something in their appeal that they wouldn't do in a public one, it should be dealt with the same way. 

Private means private, so obviously the banning staff member can't expose information from the thread, and it would be common sense for the player to do the same. 

 

I had always perceived it that way. Perhaps it isn't required.

Edited July 31, 2014 by HailSaban

[Cyotie911]

Wow, this exploded a bit while I was away. In that regard, I apologize for my absence.

Cyotie, I understand that in some circumstances, it's pointless for there to be a request for an outside staff member to deal with a ban. However, I do feel that if a player requests for an alternate, whether it's necessary or not, they should get that right. If they feel that there's bias against them from their banner, whether there is or isn't, they have the right to have another user look at it.

I don't see ban appeals that request for other staff to help often, but when I do, I hope to see the staff professionally handle it, as requested.

Yes, they do have the right to have another staff member look at their appeal however the decision to have the appeal be taken care of by someone else will always land upon the admin. If it were to be handled in the fashion you describe, it would be equivalent to a child asking his mom for something, not getting the answer they wanted, going to ask dad instead, doesn't get the answer they want, goes to grandma next and so on until they get the answer they are looking for.

Do players have the right to ask for their appeal to be private? I never saw anything said about this and have wondered for a while now.

If not, I think that should be an allowance. Whilst I understand that if this were to happen, many players would lose the formality and respect that they show in public appeals, but the actual nature of handling the appeal should be the same. If a banned player does something in their appeal that they wouldn't do in a public one, it should be dealt with the same way.

Private means private, so obviously the banning staff member can't expose information from the thread, and it would be common sense for the player to do the same.

Thanks for that unbiased downvote, diff.

Ban appeals will never be private. Circumstances surrounding bans and unbans have always been public for a reference for a players future bans, for instance, how many times they were banned in the past is only recorded by the # of appeals they have, how many times previously they have been banned for a certain violation (I.e. xray) will determine how long of a ban length that needs to be set. There are numerous other reasons that private ban appeals will never happen and this has always been our policy.

[EeHee2000]

Ban appeals will never be private. Circumstances surrounding bans and unbans have always been public for a reference for a players future bans, for instance, how many times they were banned in the past is only recorded by the # of appeals they have, how many times previously they have been banned for a certain violation (I.e. xray) will determine how long of a ban length that needs to be set. There are numerous other reasons that private ban appeals will never happen and this has always been our policy.

Ah okay, that makes good sense then. 

[Cyotie911]

Ah okay, that makes good sense then.

Glad you see it my way. I wouldn't want to have to beat you into submission! Lol just kidding.

[CROCKODUCK]

Glad you see it my way. I wouldn't want to have to beat you into submission! Lol just kidding.

He's not kidding ಠ_ಠ

[EeHee2000]

He's not kidding ಠ_ಠ

Can confirm. ;_;

[barneygale]

Going back to the original subject, I wasn't particularly impressed with this reply from CROCKODUCK on a topic marked [head admin]: https://nerd.nu/forums/index.php?/topic/2422-ongoing-problem-with-gags-headadmin/?p=17736

 

Firstly this is obviously a head admin matter. If I were in this position, I'd add "[headadmin]" to the title if it wasn't there already, then leave it.

 

I would not:

 

1. Complain about the terminology "gagging" when it's completely clear what was meant. It's rather stroppy to demand people use the same words as me.

2. Announce my decision not to move the topic. "I'll allow it." come on, what is this? Good forums don't have mods like this.

3. Ask the player to be patient, when they haven't said anything to indicate impatience.

4. Link to their notes, which saves almost no time given head admins are well equipped to view mcbouncer notes themselves

 

If you want to reply with something that doesn't make you sound derisive, try:

 

"Hello [name], thank you for raising these concerns. Our head admins are currently busy so there may be a wait time but I'll contact them on your behalf so that they are aware of your topic."