The "Toxic" Debacle

[SwitchViewz]

 

Salient points:

 

• Mods have "no real power"
• Discussing actually changing the rules gets shut down by higher-ups.
• Rules are selectively enforced, for unknown reasons.
• Admins can make choices unilaterally and ignore mod protest.
• A player who is actively trying to scam/steal from others is being allowed to continue doing so by the admin.

 

 

1.) You are correct, we don't have any "real power" over other players but we are here to keep things civil and enjoy the game with you. We are apart of the community just like you are, were not trying to squash what you are saying or keep you hushed.

2.) This is completely false as evident by the "Rule Clarification" thread and Mumberthrax's poll. Please don't make such accusations when they are so blatantly untrue. We are actively listening and trying to improve things but they don't happen instantly. If people want rules adjusted or clarified then going about it in the civil manor in the other threads is how to do it.

3.) Different mods enforce things differently. I know that I tend to keep a slightly tighter grip and attention to chat and enforce the rules a bit more while other mods may let things slip. There also various ways modreqs and ban related things can be interpreted as every mod is different. Denying us that would be telling us to stop talking and do things a certain way regardless if we agree or want to do it that way. We all have different interpretations and because of that different things are enforced differently.

4.) Admins are higher up the food chain then mods and because of this of course they can overrule us on certain things. We don't always know everything that goes on in Admin Chat or conversations between the admins. I don't know how you can say this when your not even on staff to make this accusation.

5.) If someone is scamming or stealing with others then that is a serious issue. You need to bring that to staff, most of us including me will listen to you regardless of who you are.

[jchance]

UNP, I'm going to be frank- those conclusions are completely baseless and without merit.

 

• Mods have "no real power"

You're absolutely right- "mods are nothing more than players who are given the tools and trust to help other players" has been a chief tenet of this community since it was founded.   We believe it so strongly that there has been a public forum post on it (copied over from our old forums) on these forums since day 1:

 

https://nerd.nu/forums/topic/405-becoming-a-moderator-is-not-a-promotion/

 

Mods have 3 "powers" if you want to call them that:

 

1. To volunteer their time to help other players, not for personal gain, but because they want to help the community.
2. To give priority feedback to admins on policy and moderation guidelines, because they're the troops in the trenches and their opinion tends to have the voice of experience, not anger over "mod A didn't approve my land claim so unfair!!!1" that we get so often from player feedback.
3. They are trusted to make judgement calls on modreqs where everything might not be so cut and dry 100% of the time.

 

You're making a point like its something new or wrong.   This is how it has always been and how it will always be- it is the very root principal this community was founded on.

 

• Discussing actually changing the rules gets shut down by higher-ups.

   

   

This has no bearing on reality.   Anyone is allowed to discuss rule changes and policies, and as long as it doesn't devolve in to personal attacks or trolling no admin takes steps to stop it.   Case in point- this thread where I, as a head admin and logical human being, think some people are completely full of crap and still it continues.  

 

Note-  just because we don't decide to do the thing you're proposing does not mean we shut you down- it means we decided not to do it.   There is a difference.

 

If the mod in that screenshot wants to talk to someone they can approach me directly and I'll be happy to discuss whatever they have in mind.  Ask EeHee or whoever you want- I'll talk to you even if I don't agree with you and I'll talk to you with respect (if not brutal honesty). 

 

• Rules are selectively enforced, for unknown reasons.

   

   

That "power" #3 above-  The one where we give mods the power to make judgement calls?  Sometimes this results in uneven application of policy.  We try to minimize it and keep training consistent, but you can never remove the human factor from having 50 different people help mod the servers.  Server admins have broad power on their own servers to make judgement calls too.   What might be perfectly ok on C might not be ok on P.  Each server has their own culture and admins who shape that culture.

 

It is human nature to try to find conspiracy where the most logical conclusion stares you in the face.  What makes more sense- that the admins have a secret cabal to selectively enforce rules, or that human beings might all approach a problem from different angles and their individual personalities and views shape how they handle that situation?

 

• Admins can make choices unilaterally and ignore mod protest.

   

   

You are absolutely correct on this one.   Nerd.nu is not a democracy.   Mods don't get to tell admins what to do.  We do not have 100 chiefs and no indians.   I, or any other admin, does not need mod permission or approval to make any change or policy decision because thats fucking nuts.   There is no organization on earth where staff gets to tell management how to do their job.  Why you would think this community was any different is kinda odd.

 

Yes, we care about feedback from mods and players.  Yes, you are allowed to voice your opinion and we'll listen.   I know I have had my opinion swayed in the past by input (or protest, whatever word you think will make your points more inflammatory) from players, mods, and server admins.   However, just like everything else in life, there is no guarantee that your feedback will be deemed prudent or valid for any given situation.

 

Players and mods can always provide input, but admins make decisions.  Thats how it always has been, how it is, and how it always will be.

 

• A player who is actively trying to scam/steal from others is being allowed to continue doing so by the admin.

   

   

I am not going to comment on any specific players or cases, but I know that this case is still being discussed as of tonight by the server admins.   Just because you don't get to see the decision making going on behind the curtain does not give you the right to bash the admins who run the most popular server in the community, period.

 

If you have input that is relevant to the case please send it in a PM or email it to admins@nerd.nu.  Otherwise, I'd appreciate it if you could avoid trying to throw some of the most active and fair admins on staff under the bus because you're out of the loop.

[UNP]

Otherwise, I'd appreciate it if you could avoid trying to throw some of the most active and fair admins on staff under the bus because you're out of the loop.

 

I didn't name anyone specifically, did I? You and SwitchViewz' responses are partially why. You both refuse to accept the possibility that you're overstepping your bounds as enforcers. 

 

Go ahead and dismiss me all you want but don't act like I'm trying to throw anyone under a bus. It's a mod I was HAVING the pictured discussion with, which should tell you heaps about the state of the server.

 

Like Eehee said, the server is "critically wounded".

 

As for the "rule overhaul discussion", all I'm seeing is the same arguments back and forth over multiple pages with absolutely no resolution in sight. It's not there to actually result in changes, it's there to keep the plebs busy and distracted. Please don't act like it's anything more than that, because if it was, there'd be something to show for it.

Edited March 24, 2015 by UNP

[tobylane]

Is it critically wounded by the toxic players, or by the reaction to them? Either way it sounds like dealing with toxic players better is the fix. Taking toxic players out of the equation solves it even if we don't agree on which is wounding.

 

UNP there is progress being made. You can't just ignore or dismiss what you don't like. We've seen this before, with the people arguing the same sort of things as you, S players who don't like the status quo. I'll call it something toxic people do even if isn't toxic itself.

[EeHee2000]

Is it critically wounded by the toxic players, or by the reaction to them? Either way it sounds like dealing with toxic players better is the fix. Taking toxic players out of the equation solves it even if we don't agree on which is wounding.

 

I really have no idea how this is supposed to be considered helpful. 

It's critically wounded by several different factors that date back to about 2 years ago. The whole 'toxic' string of bullshit is more recent, dating back about 1 - 0.5 years ago. 

Taking either party out of the equation is effectively a "fix", because it stops the arguing. Why would you ever suggest removing the toxic players? How the fuck is that supposed to help? You know that isn't going to happen, why bring it up? 

I genuinely don't know if you're trying to flame, but if you are, you're a legend at it. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by EeHee2000

[cdmrtbeok]

You guys make it seem like the rules are being arbitrarily enforced and there is no reasoning. Let me clue you in to something...

 

You guys, "the toxic," are assholes in chat and on these forums are not liked. You don't have the divine right to join a community and be a dickhead and troll and not be well liked and expect to stick around. 

 

End of discussion. I'm not on the staff, I'm not clued into any secret knowledge. This is just how the world works. Not everything is a court of law.

 

Be nice, play blocks, make friends = no problems

 

Troll, be a dick, rage, make enemies = eventually banned.

 

If you are shitty to people on chat and on these forums go away, we don't need you. If this server is so sick that you don't want to grace us with your presence anymore, please leave. It will probably only improve this place.

 

To the mod in that blurred out thing, step down, you are taking this too seriously. Relax and play blocks.  I did that.

Edited March 24, 2015 by cdmrtbeok

[tobylane]

I really have no idea how this is supposed to be considered helpful. 

It's critically wounded by several different factors that date back to about 2 years ago. The whole 'toxic' string of bullshit is more recent, dating back about 1 - 0.5 years ago. 

Taking either party out of the equation is effectively a "fix", because it stops the arguing. Why would you ever suggest removing the toxic players?

 

Toxic as a simple word used to describe the negative behaviour is new, but the negative behaviour is very old. Judging from what I've read about the server history the negativity predates formal administration. I suggest taking those players out because it's a fix, however unideal it may be.

[EeHee2000]

Sorry, can't quote:

 

Tobylane, were these "toxic" people to be all banned from the community, do you expect that there would be no more toxic players joining nerd? 

 

In all walks of life, you will find people you dislike or disagree with; simply trying to get rid of them is a temporary solution to something that's more a simple fact of life than a problem. 

[Narissis]

I didn't name anyone specifically, did I? You and SwitchViewz' responses are partially why. You both refuse to accept the possibility that you're overstepping your bounds as enforcers.

 

This is literally impossible, because it is a privately-run server and therefore the admins have no bounds to overstep. They can run it as they see fit.

 

Go ahead and dismiss me all you want but don't act like I'm trying to throw anyone under a bus. It's a mod I was HAVING the pictured discussion with, which should tell you heaps about the state of the server.

 

If you think he was dismissing you, you either didn't take the time to read what he said or didn't bother trying to understand it. You complain again and again about feeling like you're "not allowed to disagree," but that's exactly how you treat everyone else: anytime someone attempts to disagree with you, you write it off as a dismissal and whine that nobody listens to you.

 

An interesting thing about psychology: people are more likely to suspect ill will of others if they, themselves, are predisposed to commit that ill will. For instance, a thief will often be more nervous about people stealing their stuff in turn, because they judge others based on themselves. You seem to be exhibiting that here, by treating any disparate point of view from yours as a dismissal in the same way that you perceive them dismissing you.

 

Like Eehee said, the server is "critically wounded".

 

Eehee's justification for making that statement is every bit as flimsy as your complaints about the staff. By all reasonable metrics, the server is doing just fine.

 

As for the "rule overhaul discussion", all I'm seeing is the same arguments back and forth over multiple pages with absolutely no resolution in sight. It's not there to actually result in changes, it's there to keep the plebs busy and distracted. Please don't act like it's anything more than that, because if it was, there'd be something to show for it.

 

That's because there's no real problem in the first place. It's hard to solve issues that don't actually exist.

[Narissis]

You guys make it seem like the rules are being arbitrarily enforced and there is no reasoning. Let me clue you in to something...

 

You guys, "the toxic," are assholes in chat and on these forums are not liked. You don't have the divine right to join a community and be a dickhead and troll and not be well liked and expect to stick around. 

 

End of discussion. I'm not on the staff, I'm not clued into any secret knowledge. This is just how the world works. Not everything is a court of law.

 

Be nice, play blocks, make friends = no problems

 

Troll, be a dick, rage, make enemies = eventually banned.

 

If you are shitty to people on chat and on these forums go away, we don't need you. If this server is so sick that you don't want to grace us with your presence anymore, please leave. It will probably only improve this place.

 

To the mod in that blurred out thing, step down, you are taking this too seriously. Relax and play blocks.  I did that.

 

Preach!

 

Something that a lot of people fail to understand is that if their behaviour is not accepted, it doesn't necessarily mean the community is not accepting. Instead, it often simply means that their behaviour is not acceptable.

[UNP]

You lot want to get rid of anyone who doesn't think like you, and to top it off you act like that's virtuous somehow.

[TheRandomnatrix]

This can't be stressed enough. I get the impression that some players want the staff to behave like lawyers, doing everything down to the letter of every rule every time and always being completely and utterly professional. Then, in the same breath, they advocate for a more relaxed community. These two things are at odds; the more rigid, formal, and uniform the staff become, the more stifling the community will become, and things would wind up even more tense because it would be like playing a game under a dictatorship.

 

I'm not saying that the staff shouldn't strive for objectivity and consistency in how they enforce the rules, but they should be friends and fellow players first, and staff second. That way, they remain part of the community instead of deepening a rift by which they isolate themselves into a staff clique, which is exactly what people keep complaining about.

As someone who's been around nerd long enough to see the many admin iterations, and being part of that myself now, it's a difficult balance. I've seen some who handle things too strictly to the point of alienating fellow staff and players as you mention, but I've also seen some who don't take the job seriously enough and wind up being detrimental to the community. I still come on Mumble and ingame and joke around as I've been doing for years, but now I have to really watch what I say so as not to be a bad role model. I want to be everyone's friend, but I can't cut friends any slack if they don't follow the rules because if I do I'm a hypocrite and not doing my job. I don't want to be a rule lawyer, but some people try so hard to worm their way into any loophole or subjectivity they can that it's hard not to.

[Narissis]

UNP, you're trying to make the community out to be some kind of exclusionary sect. That's not the case at all.

 

It isn't "think like us or leave", it's "behave yourself or leave".

 

I don't feel as though you've grasped the idea that there's a difference between opinion and attitude. You're allowed to think what you want. You're allowed to bring up your grievances in a mature fashion.

 

But if you deliberately get up in everyone's grill and then try to make the excuse "Well, I'm a blunt individual. That's just the way I am.", you can't expect it to go over well.

 

It's not the thought dissent that people are trying to "get rid of", it's the shitty confrontational attitude. That's what gets people labelled as "toxic".

 

All through this thread, the false equivalency is brought up again and again that the people considered "toxic" are simply people who disagree with the staff. And if you think it comes down to nothing more than disagreement, then you're failing to understand the actual problem. You're allowed to disagree with the staff, just don't be a prick about it.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Narissis

[SwitchViewz]

You lot want to get rid of anyone who doesn't think like you, and to top it off you act like that's virtuous somehow.

I'm starting to get really sick of you making accusations like this and then providing absolutely no evidence to back it up. Either start bringing some evidence or support with you, or stop making such incorrect statements. I have tried to reason and talk with you several times in this thread as well as other staff but we keep getting tossed aside and contradicted with no evidence. Knock it off.

 

 

I didn't name anyone specifically, did I? You and SwitchViewz' responses are partially why. You both refuse to accept the possibility that you're overstepping your bounds as enforcers. 

 

Go ahead and dismiss me all you want but don't act like I'm trying to throw anyone under a bus. It's a mod I was HAVING the pictured discussion with, which should tell you heaps about the state of the server.

 

Like Eehee said, the server is "critically wounded".

 

As for the "rule overhaul discussion", all I'm seeing is the same arguments back and forth over multiple pages with absolutely no resolution in sight. It's not there to actually result in changes, it's there to keep the plebs busy and distracted. Please don't act like it's anything more than that, because if it was, there'd be something to show for it.

If you think I or any other staff member is overstepping there bounds then please feel free to tell me that. If your going to do that I want evidence and facts about what I have overstepped. I try to take a very light approach to moderating as I don't like banning/muting/kicking people if I don't have to. So please, if you have a problem please let me know or if it's another staff member then talk to the Heads about it.

 

I'm not trying to throw you under the bus at all but the mod that made that statement is silly. I am in a moderator position and I do a variety of things to help improve and make an "impact" on the servers. Such as the FNG and helping with our game expansion, running other events and designing new lobbies, as well as other things. You don't have to be in an admin position to make an impact. The fact they state that is silly and frankly not true. cmdrtebok is correct in the fact that they are taking this way to seriously. This isn't a business where in order to do anything you have to be in a higher position. They can do all sorts of things as a Mod or as a Player.

 

When Eehee says the server is "critically wounded" I don't agree with that. I have been around a long time, not as long as some staff members but I've been here a good few years. Over the course of being a player and a moderator I do agree that there are things that need fixing and improving. Some of those things are rather large and need restructuring but we aren't "critically wounded". To use such a term is being frivolous and makes it sound like were on our last breath. Things are not perfect but there is no reason to be so dramatic over it.

 

If you want this "rule overhaul discussion" to go anywhere then step up to the plate and offer what we should do and a plan of action. An example of this is Mumberthrax's poll about the rules. Just because staff doesn't do it right away doesn't mean players can't. Please feel free to help improve and make posts on how you think things should be improved.

[UNP]

If you want this "rule overhaul discussion" to go anywhere then step up to the plate and offer what we should do and a plan of action.

 

I tried to. I said that instead of trying to change the wording or quibble over semantics, it'd be a much better use of the admins time and effort to write rules that allow for more intelligent moderation. 

 

It was outright mocked and ignored.

 

I'm not interested in trying to appeal to the better nature of people I believe don't HAVE a better nature.

[cdmrtbeok]

On second though, fuck it

Edited March 25, 2015 by cdmrtbeok

[EeHee2000]

I wasn't saying the server as a whole is critically wounded, sorry for the bad wording.
The server is actually doing rather well, player-wise, and it seems that we could even be growing once again.
However, the state of affairs between the 'toxic' group and their opponents is pretty shitty, no-one ought to deny that.
That's a pretty large issue, not something that just needs a 'little bit of tweaking'.

[Mrloud15]

 I have blurred out identifying details though, and I won't mention names, because I know those players will unfairly face reprisal and backlash over this, which is altogether not right.

Even though I wish the mod in question would have come to one of the heads if they had an issue, no one would/will face any kind or retaliation for that post.

 

As for the "rule overhaul discussion", all I'm seeing is the same arguments back and forth over multiple pages with absolutely no resolution in sight. It's not there to actually result in changes, it's there to keep the plebs busy and distracted. Please don't act like it's anything more than that, because if it was, there'd be something to show for it.

There is currently a thread in PMC discussing changing the rules and it was brought up in our most recent admin meeting. Like most things, we are taking into account everyone's opinion on the matter, so if you have a suggestion for the rules, please feel free to pm any of the head admins with it. 

 

---

 

As for the rest of the thread.

 

I don't assume anything, and I don't care where or who a suggestion comes from. If it's a good suggestion, I will use it. I think it would be very dumb to discredit a suggestion because of who it comes from, who agrees with it, or who someone spends their time with on the servers. I also don't care what someone has done in the past when they give their opinion on something. What I care about is the content within their comment.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Mrloud15

[UNP]

Even though I wish the mod in question would have come to one of the heads if they had an issue, no one would/will face any kind or retaliation for that post.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that. I've seen the same promises get casually broken that many times in that many different places that I no longer have that level of trust in forum-level administration or moderation.

[EeHee2000]

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that. I've seen the same promises get casually broken that many times in that many different places that I no longer have that level of trust in forum-level administration or moderation.

If we aren't able to trust the staff when they offer us all of the reasonable options, then that's a problem on our side. 

Perhaps we should trust the staff a little more than we currently do, and perhaps they should trust us a little more than they currently appear to. 

[Difficult1]

You guys make it seem like the rules are being arbitrarily enforced and there is no reasoning. Let me clue you in to something...

 

You guys, "the toxic," are assholes in chat and on these forums are not liked. You don't have the divine right to join a community and be a dickhead and troll and not be well liked and expect to stick around. 

 

 

Seems to me like a lot of them have stuck around. Don't personally know how or why.

 

Some of them get banned a lot too, but come back every time none the less, is perm banning nonexistent anymore? Is there not some sort of X strikes and your out rule? And even when perms bans are issued i still see people who have been perm banned just appeal after a few months or years.

 

If they insist on being dickheads or trolls, why give them so many chances? Everyone can change or deserve a 2nd 3rd or 4th chance, but at what point does it end?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Difficult1

[UNP]

Seems to me like a lot of them have stuck around. Don't personally know how or why.

 

Don't give tbeok's comments more time than they're worth. His opinion is clearly that those with DIFFERING opinions don't belong.

[EeHee2000]

Let's try to stay on topic with this, I can see catastrophe brewing. 

Diffy, I'd reccomend you make a new thread about the permban thing, discussion on that would be nice to see. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by EeHee2000

[Difficult1]

Don't give tbeok's comments more time than they're worth. His opinion is clearly that those with DIFFERING opinions don't belong.

 

I think ill judge his comments how i want to judge them, I can see what he may be trying to get at, if you dont fine.

 

Disagreement with someone posting does not give you full reign to bash or hate on them, and if possible i would like an admin or head admin to reciprocate. 

[EeHee2000]

Let's try to stay on topic with this, I can see catastrophe brewing.