I wish to have a rule clarified

[Narissis]

How are we supposed to know the intents of every utterance. Sure, we can *try* to gather from the conversation, but then that leads to staff subjectivity which I know a few of the people in this thread have been trying to remove.

 

Ultimately, there's no removing staff judgement on this issue because the alternatives would be zero-tolerance or free-reign, either of which would be a disaster. A vocal minority can bitch and moan about the staff as much as they want; ultimately their job as staff is to make these kinds of decisions in addition to the gameplay services they provide. I mean, that's the entire meaning of the word 'moderate' for goodness' sake.

 

For my part, all I'm saying is that the staff should be careful about how they approach the issue and not make any knee-jerk reactions unless the context is obviously negative. Judging by the full text of your post, I'd say that the due diligence was reasonable in this particular instance.

 

Anyway, it's entirely possible that there's simply no solution for OP's dilemma. The problem is that we're dealing with an online community, which is a platform that naturally attracts abrasive and immature little shits with no internal checks or balances on their behaviour thanks to the mask of anonymity. The consequence of this is that the usage of the word 'gay' is in an immature and negative context more often than it isn't, which will of course lead to warnings and bans, which does create the impression that it's a taboo word even if it is context sensitive.

 

If those kinds of people could grow up and learn some real words so their vocabulary of "I don't like that thing" is expanded beyond "that's gay", then the internet and the world at large would be much better places.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Narissis

[Pyr0mrcow]

Briefly addressing children being homophobic and whatnot, that's just how kids are these days. Regularly rode a schoolbus with my brother not too many years ago, also listened a few times while he played some version of CoD on multiplayer...and it was just amazing how they talked. It's a difference in parents raising their kids rather than the culture of the world; I don't think I've ever even heard my brother say 'crap', but the kids on that bus used worse language than I ever had. I was about a decade older than them, even at that time. Rather than homophobia, it's a general lack of taught decency, with homophobic slurrs being an additional weapon.

Just thought that was an interesting topic.

 

Back to the issue at hand...yea, it's basically fine how things are now. As far as children seeing things, screw the children, there's an age/parental advisory agreement to even play this game. Treatment of the word should only go by what's decided to not inflame tensions, rather than a desire not to expose people to life. If they have internet access, it'll happen eventually.

While I wouldn't want to see a blanket policy here either (this is one of few good servers that doesn't overly control its population), if staff at some point agree that the word shouldn't be allowed under any circumstances, then it should be filtered out like CAPS messages to get it over with, rather than having to manually kick and warn every time. I still think it's a bad idea, but yea, just avoid the trouble if it ever gets to that point.

 

On this specific instance (I think 'kicked for being homosexual' was a seperate case from Aypop's), if Slide asked people to stop, then they should have regardless of the rules, and taken it to pms/to clanchat/to other staff/to here to discuss when he did. Sounds like trouble was being asked for when they went on with it. Sexuality is similar to politics/religion; fundamentally there's nothing wrong with discussing the topics, but they're prone to turning into complete shitstorms on the turn of a dime. But as far as what to do about it? They could show a little more discretion when taking action against the word, sure, but that applies to any rule.
As it stands, it is a difficult issue, and a single staff member shouldn't be pressured into making the decision one way or another mid-game; easy enough for people to drop it and take the discussion elsewhere/make it private, like a political discussion that looks to the current staff member like it's about to burst, rather than pushing the envelope on something that puts people in an uncomfortable position due to a blurry line between ok and not ok.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Pyr0mrcow

[XkinOEC]

 At no point did I "kick a gay person for mentioning they were gay" and find it quite insulting that anyone would paint that picture of nerd or its staff.

 

At no point did I say you did this. I was speaking about my own situation that DID in fact happen well over a year ago at this point. I did not provoke the conversation, by any means either. A player came online asking us "Is anyone here dating someone?" I said "yes" they said "do you love your girlfriend?" I said "I don't have a girlfriend" they said "so you are a girl?" I said "no" they said "so do you have a boyfriend then?" I said "yes, I am gay" about 13 seconds later, I was kicked from c.nerd.nu... no, it was not some sort of error, or time-out, it said I was kicked. So don't act as if I am painting any pictures, this DID in fact happen, so this situation is much more of a photograph then a painting. But i'll let you continue to feel insulted, just as I felt that night when it happened as well as how you made me feel by saying you're insulted that I would bring up such a thing as if it didn't happen or something.

 

Look, I don't want a fight, but by undermining my situation and acting as if it's a grounds for making you look better as you did. It really did offend and hurt me, despite agreeing with most everything else you have said.

 

Now I've re-written this response approximately 15 times feeling several turns of emotions so this is my final statement on the matter. 

[slide]

nickeox, I am sorry you felt that way, however I don't believe you were kicked "for being gay", but simply using the word. Had anyone else at that moment said the same thing, they also would have been kicked. Was that staff member over zealous? Most would probably say yes though I have no idea about the events surrounding it. I wasn't meaning to insult you just that there is a big distinction between being kicking because you used a word and being kicked for being gay. If it truly was the latter, then you should/should have brought it up with a head at the time as it would have been highly inappropriate.

[LadyRavenOwl]

It really doesn't help when modjar makes the combination of letters glow red whenever someone says it. Even usernames e.g. last name Gayle would show up as Gayle.

 

There is a way around this, I don't remember the way you have to write the highlighting code but there is a way that it no longer highlights that.  Haha.

 

 

As for the rules, Aypop, slide, and I were discussing this in mod broadcast the the other day and I was explaining that the reason that we have such a black and white rule on this is because if you offer ANY grey area at all, people will take advantage of it.  It's unfortunate, but it's the case.  I kick if I see it come up or privately message the person that we use other language on these servers; only under very rare specific instances do I end up banning right away.  If a person does persist, I do eventually end up banning.  This is a rule we've always had and it's to provide the best coverage for all parties involved.  The staff is trying its best to keep a safe supportive environment for everyone and sometimes that means having a clear cut line in the rules such as not using certain words like gay.

[Mumberthrax]

As this discussion prompted me to put together a proposal for a rule rephrasing, I'd like to share a link to the post I made about it here. https://nerd.nu/forums/topic/3197-proposed-revision-to-universal-rule-regarding-hate-speech/

[Pyr0mrcow]

Can't say I agree with the word not being allowed, but if you agree with eachother that the word shouldn't be used under any circumstances, then I'd say just block it outright like all-caps messages and skip the drama. It'd be possible to change the filter to only work on "gay ", " gay", "gay.", ect to avoid filtering names and the like, wouldn't it?

(Again, I don't agree with the decision, but...if that's how it is, let's just get it over with.)

[Mumberthrax]

Can't say I agree with the word not being allowed, but if you agree with eachother that the word shouldn't be used under any circumstances, then I'd say just block it outright like all-caps messages and skip the drama. It'd be possible to change the filter to only work on "gay ", " gay", "gay.", ect to avoid filtering names and the like, wouldn't it?

(Again, I don't agree with the decision, but...if that's how it is, let's just get it over with.)

 

As for the rules, Aypop, slide, and I were discussing this in mod broadcast the the other day and I was explaining that the reason that we have such a black and white rule on this is because if you offer ANY grey area at all, people will take advantage of it.  It's unfortunate, but it's the case.  I kick if I see it come up or privately message the person that we use other language on these servers; only under very rare specific instances do I end up banning right away.  If a person does persist, I do eventually end up banning.  This is a rule we've always had and it's to provide the best coverage for all parties involved.  The staff is trying its best to keep a safe supportive environment for everyone and sometimes that means having a clear cut line in the rules such as not using certain words like gay.

 

A rule forbidding the use of the word "gay" has never existed so long as I have been here. As a moderator and admin never once was I informed that such a rule or policy existed, whether codified or de facto. We do warn and ban people for certain usages of the word "gay" when it is meant to be an insult or pejorative, used to denigrate or malign. It is not difficult to tell from the context of its usage whether it is being used in that way.

 

Now I don't know if the current admin team has been discussing this since I was removed as sadmin, changing policy or whatever without announcing it, and I don't know if some kind of revisionist history is going on either... Slurs referring to gay people? yes those are banned. Slurs referring to people of certain ethnicities? yes those are banned too. Because they fall under "homophobia" and racism, which are disallowed by the universal rules. I will never recognize as truth that "gay" has ever been a banned word universally at nerd as long as I have been here (survival rev 18).

[Ridiculous]

I'd rather there was no rule on homophobia at all and instead bans were made where hate speech was a part of persistent personal harassment. I don't feel the need for that additional protection and would prefer that people were honest in their speech so that I could identify the closet homophobes and handle them myself. That's how 99% of these issue get dealt with IRL. We know the rules are well-intentioned and maybe they do work best for more vulnerable LGBT, but I feel that the majority of users know how to take care of themselves and aren't anyone's victims. I know how to mute a user and I know even better how to rekt them in the banter department.

[schererererer]

A rule forbidding the use of the word "gay" has never existed so long as I have been here. As a moderator and admin never once was I informed that such a rule or policy existed, whether codified or de facto. We do warn and ban people for certain usages of the word "gay" when it is meant to be an insult or pejorative, used to denigrate or malign. It is not difficult to tell from the context of its usage whether it is being used in that way.

This has been my understanding of the rule as well for as long as I've been here. Preventing someone from non-pejoratively using words like "gay", "jew", etc. is tantamount to whitewashing and suppressing the idea that said groups exist. The solution is straightforward - no to pejoratives, slurs, or trolling; yes to use as identifiers and in mature discussion. This of course brings staff interpretation/judgement into the picture, but as Narissis said, it's the best avenue, and problems with false positives can be mitigated by talking to the head admins if one occurs so we can go over it and talk with the staff in question to help adjust their contextual interpretation.

[UNP]

I'd rather there was no rule on homophobia at all and instead bans were made where hate speech was a part of persistent personal harassment. I don't feel the need for that additional protection and would prefer that people were honest in their speech so that I could identify the closet homophobes and handle them myself. That's how 99% of these issue get dealt with IRL. We know the rules are well-intentioned and maybe they do work best for more vulnerable LGBT, but I feel that the majority of users know how to take care of themselves and aren't anyone's victims. I know how to mute a user and I know even better how to rekt them in the banter department.

Well said.

[SwitchViewz]

I'd rather there was no rule on homophobia at all and instead bans were made where hate speech was a part of persistent personal harassment. I don't feel the need for that additional protection and would prefer that people were honest in their speech so that I could identify the closet homophobes and handle them myself. That's how 99% of these issue get dealt with IRL. We know the rules are well-intentioned and maybe they do work best for more vulnerable LGBT, but I feel that the majority of users know how to take care of themselves and aren't anyone's victims. I know how to mute a user and I know even better how to rekt them in the banter department.

You have to remember though that this is Minecraft and lots of younger people play it. They often don't know how to mute or even what some of those words mean and wouldn't know what to do when seeing them. Sure, you know how to handle it, but what about everyone else? Were here to play with blocks not have to handle and deal with other players.

 

It really doesn't help when modjar makes the combination of letters glow red whenever someone says it. Even usernames e.g. last name Gayle would show up as Gayle.

 

It really shouldn't take a mod that long to read under what context it was used, and then mediate (or you know, MODERATE) the conversation from there. It's pretty easy to tell when it gets used negatively as opposed to objectively.I get that it's a sensitive topic, but it only makes things worse in the long run because no one can talk about it. We're a diverse community so of course they're plenty of people whose sexual orientation differs from others, that being said, it seems counterproductive to treat them differently in an effort to protect them. It's also a bit weird the few times that players are having a regular discussion only to have a mod interrupt with the "YOU CAN'T SAY THAT HERE, CEASE AND DESIST".

This is a built in feature of Watson and anyone can go download, install it, and tell it what words to highlight. The main reason we have it highlight those words is because often mods are not paying close attention to chat and are off building. The highlight gets our attention so we know to pay attention to what is going on in chat and decide if we should take action or not.