Regarding my last thread

[Forever_A_Steve]

IMHO, we could certainly stand to simplify and streamline the rules. Maybe not to the extent of being overly broad in the sense that they once were with "don't be or build a dick", but enough so that players can read just a short summary to get a sense of the general standard for conduct on the server.

 

There will always be rules lawyers, and they'll always find new loopholes no matter how many revisions are made to the rules. At some point you just have to stop and say "okay, here are the rules; this is as complex as they need to be" and tell the rules lawyers "I'm sorry that you feel the staff are unfairly subjective, however the mods have been carefully appointed from a pool of players who have proven themselves fair and trustworthy in judgement. The admins will review this case to ensure that you were not treated unfairly" and then have an admin double-check the logs to make sure the interaction was reasonable.

 

I've always been fond of taking a more affirmative approach to rules, personally. I don't like to call them "rules"; I think it sounds a little too patronizing, like something you'd follow in grade school. I like "code of conduct", with terms worded positively - for instance, instead of saying "no griefing" I would say "respect other players and their builds". That's just my preference, though.

 

 

the rules are fine. What needs to be done is a punishment/ban re-work. 

 

Plenty of threads where new players get banned that ends with a "Even though I read and understand the rules, but thats still kinda harsh."

 

 

The point is to be forgiving and welcoming to new players. Not to drive them out with bans. 

 

 

And honestly, judging by the bans on mc bouncer found here https://mcbouncer.com/userbans

Griefing is the biggest problem, yet it doesn't carry a harsh punishment of 1 month + having all of your builds nuked from orbit like a trivial thing such as x-ray.

 

X-ray being reworked to a 1-2 week ban and having all of your valuables taken away is more reasonable. You want people to think about what they have done, not despise the server and resent the staff. 

 

 

 

Mod team does a good job. but policy changes can be used. 

[SwitchViewz]

X-ray being reworked to a 1-2 week ban and having all of your valuables taken away is more reasonable. You want people to think about what they have done, not despise the server and resent the staff. 

The problem with this is that we can't determine that damage that is caused by someone xraying. If someone xrays 32 diamonds and then makes a bunch of tools, he can then use those tools to make builds, or he could sell those tools to gain other resources. We don't catch xrayers right away, so depending on how long after we catch them the amount of damage could range from being minimal to be drastic.

 

In very rare cases when xray has caused damage to a whole town or majorly affected the community in some way we will look into redoing some of the edits made, however I only recall 2 instances of this ever happening.

 

My personal opinion (does not reflect views of other padmins) is that we should change the xray rule so that players can ModReq to have a redo done on a area that has effected a bunch of players. This way half of your pumpkin tower isn't suddenly missing or all the glowstone in the south road is gone.

 

And honestly, judging by the bans on mc bouncer found here https://mcbouncer.com/userbans

Griefing is the biggest problem, yet it doesn't carry a harsh punishment of 1 month + having all of your builds nuked from orbit like a trivial thing such as x-ray.

Griefing comes in all sorts of forms and can range from minimal to massive. If someone griefs a couple of farms and tears down a house or two then they may be banned for a couple of days. However if someone griefs a couple thousand blocks, then the ban will be longer. I have banned players for griefing 30k+ blocks on C and I will give them a month ban for it. It is really up to moderator discretion on how much is griefed and how long the ban will be.

 

 

I concur with tebok that nerd used to be a lot more player-friendly. When I was S admin we would do random giveaways, teleports, etc. nerd gradually got more uptight about that sort of thing (I remember an old survival mod - I forget her name - actually being demodded for spawning food in good faith for a random player), which is why everyone has been complaining for fucking years about how much privilege admin gets you. Despite everyone's claims to the contrary, becoming a staffer at nerd is more of a promotion than on most other minecraft servers, principally because players have no say in any decision making.

I don't see how we are not "player- friendly"? We don't necessarily do random giveways as we like to leave that up to the players, though I hope this will change a bit in Rev 17; but we are also not going to teleport you a couple hundred of blocks. Infrastructure is there for a reason, use it, tping players would only harm builds that are meant for transportation.

 

I don't agree with you on it being "a promotion" but I do feel you have a solid point when you said "players don't have any say decision making." There are many things that players have requested and have been hugely popular (such as sleeping in beds during the day on P), yet we do not implement it. To me, the players are the server. They make it what it is, and while staff helps to also make what it is, it is the players that ultimately decide to play here. We need to listen to the players more, and I think we are slowly making progress to get there. I know that during the P community meeting there were a lot of concerns and suggestions brought up and we are changing/acting on many of them for Rev 17.

 

 

 I'm hoping that sooner or later we'll get a set of head admins that realises it's better to promote people who shitpost occasionally and have issues with the current staff than a bunch of yes-men who think nerd's gradual haemorrhaging of players is just fine.

I think you have a good point here to an extent. We can be very choosy on who and why someone becomes a staff member and will often throw a name out for something minimal. We do need to be more lenient because sometimes it is the vocal ones that will have the most positive influence. We also have to be careful though, we can't make someone a staff member that is completely against staff and hates most people on it. We are a team and they need to be willing to work with and get along with the team.

 

We also need to stop with such a slow process on getting people into new positions. If someone is super active and they have the passion/drive to help things improve, then we should toss them into the position. We often wait to long and then by the time we want them to move into a new position, they are burnt out, and then they don't accomplish much in that position.

[tobylane]

At some point you just have to stop and say "okay, here are the rules; this is as complex as they need to be" and tell the rules lawyers "I'm sorry that you feel the staff are unfairly subjective, however the mods have been carefully appointed from a pool of players who have proven themselves fair and trustworthy in judgement. The admins will review this case to ensure that you were not treated unfairly" and then have an admin double-check the logs to make sure the interaction was reasonable.

 

Wasn't that how it used to be until people were unhappy that punishable actions went punished by those chosen to punish? I see it as the rule as the problem and they'll use anything to find an out of their time away. Maybe now Survival is down we can go back to that way, judgement and discretion. Was there ever an on-going problem with mods' judgement on P or C?

 

edit: I think I said this a year ago. Put out some names of people you want to be staff. They must be willing to be mods for a while first, and have the time for mod and admin tasks. Personally I'd rule anyone out who apologised for breaking a rule and then did it again, but I guess not everyone will agree. I think that would rule me out and I still think it's a good idea.

Edited December 8, 2015 by tobylane

[Narissis]

the rules are fine. What needs to be done is a punishment/ban re-work. 

 

Plenty of threads where new players get banned that ends with a "Even though I read and understand the rules, but thats still kinda harsh."

 

 

The point is to be forgiving and welcoming to new players. Not to drive them out with bans.

 

Anyone is going to complain that a punishment is harsh when they're the subject of it. You could ban them for one day and they'd whine that a ban is too stiff for whatever they did.

 

That said, I agree that the ban lengths for X-ray are too steep. If the only punishment was a ban, then I'd consider them reasonable. But when it's coupled with the full rollback and inventory loss, there's no need to also have an excessively long ban. I'd suggest reducing X-ray ban periods to be similar to griefing bans, while retaining the rollback & inventory dump. This way the player still gets some "cooling-off" time, and having lost the spoils of their X-raying, they will be discouraged from repeat offenses by the knowledge that the benefit of their cheating will not be sustained after their ban.

 

And of course, just like griefing, the ban lengths would increase with repeat offenses. So if a player truly doesn't learn their lesson, they'll quickly be facing ban durations comparable to the present standard for X-ray.

 

Wasn't that how it used to be until people were unhappy that punishable actions went punished by those chosen to punish? I see it as the rule as the problem and they'll use anything to find an out of their time away. Maybe now Survival is down we can go back to that way, judgement and discretion. Was there ever an on-going problem with mods' judgement on P or C?

 

edit: I think I said this a year ago. Put out some names of people you want to be staff. They must be willing to be mods for a while first, and have the time for mod and admin tasks. Personally I'd rule anyone out who apologised for breaking a rule and then did it again, but I guess not everyone will agree. I think that would rule me out and I still think it's a good idea.

 

Precisely, tobylane - the rules used to be very brief, simple, and digestible (before my time on nerd.nu began, admittedly). And then, over time, staff reacted to rules lawyering by making the rules more and more complex. I feel like we've gone a little past the point where we should've just stopped and told people "tough cookies, staff judgement will never not be a factor." In my observation, the players who complain about mod subjectivity are almost exclusively players who deliberately push their luck until they get a slap on the wrist. To be frank, we don't need to cater to that kind of shit-disturbing attitude.

 

As for ruling out staff promotions for players who have been repeat offenders, I wouldn't necessarily agree in absolute terms. I think people can mature and change and sometimes deserve a second chance. But I think that players with disciplinary records should be considered carefully. The severity of the infractions should be taken into account, as well as the time elapsed since the most recent disciplinary action. If need be, the player could be promoted on a probationary basis.

[Forever_A_Steve]

I however can agree that the grief bans should vary. But with what switch said, 30k block grief should result in a perma ban. 

 

I agree more with Switch on the x-ray issue because over half of clearmont and it's main driving force went poof because of shwk's unnessecary punishment. (Did I mention that this has also driven him to quit playing?)

 

 

We lost everything and had to do so many things all over again. Trying to contain free roaming villagers in half assed deformed trees and holes everywhere was not fun. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now it's just nerd and I, and we are finally turning the place around. But we lost out in being a popular place this rev because of the policies. (any development you see in these pictures was done after getting nuked into oblivion.)

[Forever_A_Steve]

Anyone is going to complain that a punishment is harsh when they're the subject of it. You could ban them for one day and they'd whine that a ban is too stiff for whatever they did.

 

 

 

https://nerd.nu/forums/topic/3870-gamepro2204-totemo/?p=31237

 

he got a 1 month insta-ban and even admitted to it.

 

Even he said that he thinks it's too steep for what it is, and considering how trivial it can be, I agree with him.

 

 

 

 

$5 says he won't ever come back to play for more than 2 hours. (if any, at all)

[Guest Former Staff]

Please keep the ban duration feedback coming, we're listening. Hopefully by the time we head into the new year, we'll be using a revised ban duration system, after discussions and your feedback.

[Forever_A_Steve]

Please keep the ban duration feedback coming, we're listening. Hopefully by the time we head into the new year, we'll be using a revised ban duration system, after discussions and your feedback.

 

 

2 week max ban (1 week if they are nice about it) with all valuables taken away for first time x-ray infractions. 

No nuking from orbit!!!

[Narissis]

The catch here is that the rollback is intended to remove not only the materials obtained by X-ray, but also the edits that were done using the spoils.

 

For instance, if someone X-rays to diamonds, then makes an enchanting table and some diamond tools, and uses the diamond tools to mine a bunch of stone... then that stone is the product of X-ray. It's often not possible to remove only the direct products of X-raying because by the time it's acted upon, those have already been crafted into things.

 

If we were to grant an exception to secondary products of X-ray, then there'd be no functional disincentive for X-raying because players would simply craft things immediately with their X-rayed ores, eliminating the possibility of losing anything at all. Then they'd take a little vacation for their 2-week ban and be back at the end ready to X-ray some more.

 

Ultimately, the best solution would probably be one wherein all the crafting and tool uses are traceable so we could remove only the things that were crafted from blocks mined using tools acquired directly through X-rayed materials... but I don't think our logging plugins are sophisticated enough to allow that.

[SirTacoface]

Just wanted to hop in and tag along to what Barlimore said. Yeah we're watching this thread, and a lot of great discussion is happening, really. I definitely think a new ban duration system would be appropriate, so we'll keep an open mind of whats said here, and elsewhere. 

 

I also wanted to point out barneygale's comment: "You used your powers to exercise your duties. My point was that previously, those duties included not being cuckolded by the rules page when good judgement leads you to a different conclusion."

 

For the time I've been Creative Admin and Head Admin, I've helped new moderators, and returning ones, on moderating duties. I always made sure they understood that good judgement is the greatest tool. I've learned this personally from those who trained me, and believe I should pass on the great message. I think as of now, we have a great staff on hand, that truly just want to help, and not live off of the rulebook like scripture. Or in barney's words, being cuckolded by the rules page. That's just like, my opinion, man. If you think otherwise, feel free to send me a PM.

[barneygale]

The 30 day policy came into effect while I was admin. There's a few factors to consider

* A uniform number is much easier to apply - xray bans are contentious and it lessens the possibility of people lawyering over mod bias

* The number needs to be high enough to "punish" the worst offenders

* The people who make the rules are most often dealing with the worst offenders, not scrubs

There's considerable player churn in modern minecraft. nerd.nu is perfectly set up to handle established community members stealing from chests or xraying a rival clan's mining base, but surely the vast majority of bans are from noobs longing in and not reading the rules? You only need to slap these folks on the wrist to make them pay a bit more attention. A good portion of survival's best-known players were banned very early on for griefing (many joined after watching avo videos) and they went on to build gardens and fortresses after being unbanned. Make it easy for this to happen. If someone starts griefing again immediately after getting unbanned, you can start getting serious ;)

Somewhat related, I think the idea of only setting ban lengths when someone appeals should be revisited. I've heard arguments for it - that it forces banned players to face the evidence and display contrition - but it must turn off a hell of a lot of people who'd rather play another server than sign up for a forum they'll never use again!

Some suggestions:

1. Set ban lengths on ban - use some kind of formula or guide, but allow mod discretion. Still allow people to appeal, if they want, but most bans automatically expire.

2. Give people a link to an unlisted ban appeal page via their "Banned: ..." message when they attempt to connect, like nerd.nu/appeal/80gt8s0g. Only the banned player and the mods know about the page, so they can post their appeal without signing up.

[Forever_A_Steve]

* The number needs to be high enough to "punish" the worst offenders

 

 

But it should not be excessive to the majority of players.

 

Theres a difference between punishing and turning away from the server.

[tobylane]

But it should not be excessive to the majority of players.

 

Theres a difference between punishing and turning away from the server.

 

You're starting with the need for the player and their items and world edits to be around unaffected. The staff are starting with the need for the punishment to be felt and considered. I think you're starting at opposite ends of the scale. 

 

I don't want a formula, I like how it is plus maybe more discretion. The following is only the best way I could think of to show this. It's steep but that can be tweaked easily.

 

Ban time in weeks = 4 * (1.5 * number of past xrays) * (1.5 * number of years with past xray) * (1 for player, 1.5 for current or past staff). Plus if requested by the community - * (1 - 0.5 *  Contribution to the community in current revision as judged by local staff). 

[Narissis]

I think there's a middle ground to be struck between excessively long bans and too-short bans.

 

Something like, for instance, a two-tier system where first offenders receive a "slap on the wrist" style punishment, with a warning that consequences will be significantly higher for repeat offenses. In the event of a second ban, the length would be substantially longer.

[barneygale]

tobylane, I don't think you should consider the punishment being "felt" as an primary factor in ban lengths. Running nerd like a state rather than a company is a source of a lot of the problems described in this thread. If you're running a state you need to make sure that justice is done and seen to be done, as you have moral authority. If you're running a company your principal aim is to keep your customers happy. Yes, that includes removing players from the game if they're causing problems. But there's no point keeping anyone banned for any longer than necessary, because the vast majority will just switch server rather going to an internet courtroom

[Trooprm32]

The catch here is that the rollback is intended to remove not only the materials obtained by X-ray, but also the edits that were done using the spoils.

 

For instance, if someone X-rays to diamonds, then makes an enchanting table and some diamond tools, and uses the diamond tools to mine a bunch of stone... then that stone is the product of X-ray. It's often not possible to remove only the direct products of X-raying because by the time it's acted upon, those have already been crafted into things.

 

If we were to grant an exception to secondary products of X-ray, then there'd be no functional disincentive for X-raying because players would simply craft things immediately with their X-rayed ores, eliminating the possibility of losing anything at all. Then they'd take a little vacation for their 2-week ban and be back at the end ready to X-ray some more.

 

Ultimately, the best solution would probably be one wherein all the crafting and tool uses are traceable so we could remove only the things that were crafted from blocks mined using tools acquired directly through X-rayed materials... but I don't think our logging plugins are sophisticated enough to allow that.

 

This is pretty much the reason why everything is rolled back. It is infinitely easier to build and work with diamond tools, rather than stone or even iron. Rolling back everything, or at least everything since their x-ray mining makes sense. If someone does it and gets caught and banned, and then doesn't come back because their town is ruined... it's their fault, they deserve it, and I have no sympathy for them. 

[Forever_A_Steve]

This is pretty much the reason why everything is rolled back. It is infinitely easier to build and work with diamond tools, rather than stone or even iron. Rolling back everything, or at least everything since their x-ray mining makes sense. If someone does it and gets caught and banned, and then doesn't come back because their town is ruined... it's their fault, they deserve it, and I have no sympathy for them. 

 

 

It makes sense except for when it screws others over. but when HALF OF YOUR CITY THAT HAPPENS TO HOLD A CARDINAL PORTAL DISSAPEARS AND IS GRIEFED BY ADMINS happens, then your "fair" policy has failed.

 

Using your logic, it is easier, so it takes less time and effort. The same thing can be done with more time and effort. 

 

So why not just ban and take all valuables away? Your rollback policy does more damage than good and thats why it needs to be changed. 

 

 

 

Structures built are not ill-gotten gains. Yes, it takes less time for them, but thats why you ban them. not mercilessly go in and destroy it. 

 

 

Whether you have sympathy or not is fine, and it may be their fault for x-raying. But having other players getting screwed over through the actions of admins is not their fault. it's YOUR FAULT. I and many others are victims of this barbaric policy when we haven't done anything wrong. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by Forever_A_Steve

[Weazol]

It should be noted that just because an X-ray player did a lot in a town, does not mean they (the town) are aware that he is an xrayer.

Which is the case for the town in question.

I agree with Troop. I couldn't care less if the xrayer gets mad his stuff is deleted and quits the game. However, we should look into methods that do not punish the unknowing town.

[Forever_A_Steve]

It should be noted that just because an X-ray player did a lot in a town, does not mean they (the town) are aware that he is an xrayer.

 

 

 

We had no idea. It was more of a "wait...what?" thing. Then we traveled to the area and ragequit after seeing what had happened.

 

But rounding up 15 or so villagers running around in the open in a griefed area wasn't fun. Nor was rescuing some from ontop of trees. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by Forever_A_Steve

[tobylane]

Whether you have sympathy or not is fine, and it may be their fault for x-raying. But having other players getting screwed over through the actions of admins is not their fault. it's YOUR FAULT. I and many others are victims of this barbaric policy when we haven't done anything wrong. 

 

You don't know the character of the person you have working beside you, just as the admins don't know the character of the person on their public server. The fault is equal if there is any.

 

You're focusing on an extreme and personal example, could you find a more common example?

[barneygale]

It doesn't seem fair at all for the town to be collectively punished, or to force towns to vet every member to ensure they won't xray. Deal with these problems pragmatically.

[Forever_A_Steve]

You don't know the character of the person you have working beside you, just as the admins don't know the character of the person on their public server. The fault is equal if there is any.

 

You're focusing on an extreme and personal example, could you find a more common example?

 

 

 

More common examples? The newbies who do it, get overly severely punished, and never come back (or quit the server once they see their edits have been rolledback)

 

We want policies that encourage newer players to stay and have fun, not have policies that will turn them away from the server.

 

 

 

Barely anyone new reads the rules. 

[tobylane]

I agree, but to ignore the opposite of that isn't pragmatic. It's somewhere in between, and I don't think there isn anyone right in the middle who can say what is balanced.

 

If the town is only punished in losing that player and not their edits, as has happened in few select occasions when it ruined a town, is that acceptable? It may not happen as often as suits you, but that is how you'll be motivated to make sure they change their behaviour when they return. If the town members that the banned person are in contact with are positive about the server and the person's future involvement then they won't go off somewhere else. These considerable builders are invested in what they've done and won't throw it away easily, and won't abandon it just for a four week ban - unless they're being told negative things or simply aren't mature, right?

 

If a newbie breaks the rules how do we know we want that person around? We, as in the community of P and C, aren't that desperate for new players. I'm open for adjusting the first time ban for pretty much any offence but only for when there's some reason to believe they don't need to be told rules to be a nice person.

[Forever_A_Steve]

I agree, but to ignore the opposite of that isn't pragmatic. It's somewhere in between, and I don't think there isn anyone right in the middle who can say what is balanced.

 

If the town is only punished in losing that player and not their edits, as has happened in few select occasions when it ruined a town, is that acceptable? 

 

 

Thats an unfortunate consequence of a ban, and ultimately the point of a ban. It's for the offender to do their time.

 

In many cases, others can rely on what the banned have built. Like in our case, we had full farms, 100% functional grinders, villager breeders, and our whole driving force taken away from us.  If shwk was banned, thats fine. We'll just have to take over and do work with what we have. Shwk and his creations was Clearmont's strongest pillar, and that collapsed under us. 

 

 

 

This isn't a case of "just one example" because using this example, we can prevent other things like this happening and improve our rules. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 

[tobylane]

Those who strive not to make mistakes of the past make new mistakes. See France from 1790-1890, Chile, etc.

 

I'm still for near-universal rollbacks, could you give some general description of who shouldn't be rolled back?