The future of SafeBuckets on PvE

[TornadoHorse]

That was easily fix because there was staff around where it happened, but that would not be the case during a rev.

 

What do you mean by this, that there aren't enough staff on the server?

[barneygale]

slide23, please do not derail forum threads with personal whinging. You should bring personal issues to a Head Admin where they can sort it out, though my understanding is that you already have done this and the Heads do not share your very interesting viewpoint.

Back on topic, have you considered running Glacier? It's a plugin similar to SafeBuckets, but it allows region members to flow their own water (and still use still blocks where they are useful). It wouldn't help on survival, but it would eliminate a whole category of fluid-grief on PvE that would be possible if we removed restrictions on fluids altogether. The source is available here: https://github.com/JunctionAt/Glacier

[slide]

slide23, please do not derail forum threads with personal whinging. You should bring personal issues to a Head Admin where they can sort it out, though my understanding is that you already have done this and the Heads do not share your very interesting viewpoint.

 

barneygale, your hypocrisy is showing

 

 

 

This really is one of the weakest things I've heard a staff member say since JA said essentially the same thing, i.e. "we can learn nothing from other servers". What makes MCPublic such a special snowflake that it has to change vanilla gameplay, to the detriment of regular players, where other servers make do just fine?

 

Bringing up old unrelated information attempting to make a point. I'll detail how this is in fact unrelated, just because I know you will argue. What someone else says in some other, not related topic, is... wait for it... off topic.

[TornadoHorse]

There's really no need for any of this so let's just keep this on topic from now on.

 

I can't see any good reason to not at least try without having safebuckets on P since they have protections/regions.

 

I'm not certain about removing them on S yet since I can see it being messed up quite easily by players, however I'm not completely against the idea.

Edited January 4, 2014 by TornadoHorse

[Mrloud15]

What do you mean by this, that there aren't enough staff on the server?

During the CTF event there were staff flying around keeping en eye on things, so when he did this it was rolled back and he was banned in a matter of minutes of it happening. During a rev we don't have staff flying around at all times. If he did this during a rev he could have very easily continued to place lava around the map for hours before he was found and banned. Then it could lead to hours of work for mods and admins to clean up depending on were he placed the lava. Then he could just get an alt and doing it again. 

[SpiderMan]

The topic is "The future of SafeBuckets on PvE".

 

If you kids have an issue with each other, talk about it in a private IRC room, none of your personal issues are relevant to the conversation.

 

 

My Opinion is:

 

Enable liquids, limit block destruction of said liquids.

Edited January 4, 2014 by gsand

[TornadoHorse]

During the CTF event there were staff flying around keeping en eye on things, so when he did this it was rolled back and he was banned in a matter of minutes of it happening. During a rev we don't have staff flying around at all times. If he did this during a rev he could have very easily continued to place lava around the map for hours before he was found and banned. Then it could lead to hours of work for mods and admins to clean up depending on were he placed the lava. Then he could just get an alt and doing it again. 

 

If lava/water is being placed on someone's land it'll be noticed by the player, modreqed and then dealt with. If it does cause a huge problem then safebuckets can be reenabled. If it doesn't then it will be saving a lot of time for both players and staff. I think we should start off with flowing water first and see how that goes. If the player base wants to have it then surely they won't purposely mess it up for themselves, will they?

[Four_Down]

Holy mud slinging

[zifnab06]

Something that might be worth looking into is a plugin such as Glacier (https://github.com/JunctionAt/Glacier).

 

Glacier allows players to place flowing water inside of regions that they can build inside of. Water will not flow outside of the region, or flow at all in areas that aren't in a region. It also has a command to stop water from flowing entirely, so things such as mob elevators are still easily possible.

 

Excluding that, it works just like SafeBuckets.

 

Just a thought.

[NatalieIsNot]

It shows how it only takes one player to abuse it and create problems for players and staff. That was easily fix because there was staff around where it happened, but that would not be the case during a rev.

                                                                                        Staying on topic is good, mmkay?

If lava/water is being placed on someone's land it'll be noticed by the player, modreqed and then dealt with. If it does cause a huge problem then safebuckets can be reenabled. If it doesn't then it will be saving a lot of time for both players and staff. I think we should start off with flowing water first and see how that goes. If the player base wants to have it then surely they won't purposely mess it up for themselves, will they?

 

What happened in the CTF event was an ideal situation where there were plenty of mods and players online. All three of the servers have their lull hours in which there are very few players and no mods online. If we didn't have safebuckets enabled, someone could come on in those lull hours and grief a large part of the server without anyone noticing until much later.

 

It may be true that the original intent of the plugin has become redundant, but it still stands as a great and simple anti-greifing plugin.

 

If we were to limit the use of this plugin, I'd agree that there is little need for water flow to be restricted, though I still fully stand by restricting lava flow.

 

 

...have you considered running Glacier?

Something that might be worth looking into is a plugin such as Glacier (https://github.com/JunctionAt/Glacier).

I've suggested Glacier in a meeting a few months ago for PvE, but there were some concerns about permissions in large town-type protections, which can reach upwards of 200 members in a single protection, and how that would complicate things. 

 

I've talked to the author of the plugin about this, but from what I can remember, we came to the conclusion that there would have to be an exclusive distinction between the type of protection in WorldGuard (town or private) for Glacier to hook into, which doesn't currently exist.

[Diznatch52]

slide23, please do not derail forum threads with personal whinging. You should bring personal issues to a Head Admin where they can sort it out, though my understanding is that you already have done this and the Heads do not share your very interesting viewpoint.

 

barneygale, your hypocrisy is showing

 

Bringing up old unrelated information attempting to make a point. I'll detail how this is in fact unrelated, just because I know you will argue. What someone else says in some other, not related topic, is... wait for it... off topic.

 

This is unnecessary and unhelpful. Please refrain from this type of bickering as it can very easily cause a topic such as this to be derailed.

 

For those who have issues with barneygale: it's fine for you to dislike someone. As it is, The Headadmins saw it fit to unban him from the subreddit and forums in a trial period. He, as much as anyone else, has the right to give his opinion without having personal attacks thrown at him. This is true of anyone on these forums.

Regarding the actual topic at hand, I'd love to see a week or so trial period run without safebuckets. Worst comes to worst, it fails miserably and it is re-enabled. I've also been a proponent of a Glacier-like plugin for months and would love to see this enabled if the complete disabling of a safebuckets-like plugin is deemed unfeasible.

[Mrloud15]

Regarding the actual topic at hand, I'd love to see a week or so trial period run without safebuckets. Worst comes to worst, it fails miserably and it is re-enabled. I've also been a proponent of a Glacier-like plugin for months and would love to see this enabled if the complete disabling of a safebuckets-like plugin is deemed unfeasible.

Worst situation for players is that someone griefs and mods fix it. Worst situation for mods is hours and hours of cleaning up grief on top of the other modreqs needing to be done.

[Diznatch52]

Worst situation for players is that someone griefs and mods fix it. Worst situation for mods is hours and hours of cleaning up grief on top of the other modreqs needing to be done.

You're absolutely right. Perhaps this would be the best way to go about it: Have a "weeklong" trial period. If there is an immediate and obvious griefing problem, kill it after a day. If there is no problem, let it run the week and have further discussion. Worst case scenario, the mods trade the possibility of many fewer reqs for them and a better experience for the users for a (few) day(s) of possibly more griefing reqs. Is it not worth the trade?

[Cyotie911]

Getting rid of Safebuckets...  For this to even be considered, new rules for proper water/lava placement would have to be written.

 

Not that I am against new things, but the system we have works.  Player places stationary water/lava.  If they need it to flow they submit a modreq.  Mods will go and place flowing water/lava where the stationary water/lava are currently.   I don't believe that any modreq for "flowing" water/lava has ever taken very long at all to fill.  Only in the extreme cases where there are a ton of people on at the start of a revision.  Any other time they normally get filled pretty quick.  Is this the absolutely quickest way for a player to get flowing water and lava? No.  Is this the easiest for staff (i.e. not have to deal with lava and water griefing modreq's)?  Yes.   Is the trade off between a player having to wait a little bit for a mod to jump into modmode and make a players water flow vs. a players wait time and a mod's work load to have to jump into modmode to fix lava/water grief? I personally don't think so.

 

I will, quite often, jump into mod mode and take care of all the easier modreq's (like flowing water/lava) and search through the modreq's that have been placed and take care of these.  There are also a lot of mods that might not mod a lot on P or S but will still be comfortable enough to do the flowing water/lava requests.

[lukerocks01]

I Pledge For This Plugin To Go!

 

(So that I can make a Giant River for My Whiteoak Suburb xd)

[theclefe]

You're absolutely right. Perhaps this would be the best way to go about it: Have a "weeklong" trial period. If there is an immediate and obvious griefing problem, kill it after a day. If there is no problem, let it run the week and have further discussion. Worst case scenario, the mods trade the possibility of many fewer reqs for them and a better experience for the users for a (few) day(s) of possibly more griefing reqs. Is it not worth the trade?

 

This trail period would have to be at the start of the next Rev, right?  I can already think of a few spots that could be really messed up if stationary water sudden started flowing.

[buzzie71]

I'm greatly against the idea of a trial period at least during the middle of this rev.  If I were part of a grief team, I'd get about ten players together, log on and request to join a town, sneak into the wilderness and mine up some iron, craft them into buckets and fill them with water, and then proceed to dump water on the town farms and circuits - maybe flood the town if the town is next to water.  As a member of staff I'm certain that rolling back block edits made by water flow is as typical as most grief reqs, but I can see staff being frustrated if multiple water-griefs happen all at once.  It's not that I think it's impossible, but potentially time-consuming, especially if rail orientations screw up in the rollback - someone (either staff or the players) needs to pay the time to fix that.

[barneygale]

buzzie, I think you overestimate the tenacity of griefers. Remember that only a tiny proportion of griefers will be savvy enough to request town membership, and of those griefers another tiny proportion will grief with liquids, and of those griefs yet another tiny proportion will make changes that LB doesn't track properly (rail orientation, redstone repeaters and comparators).

Even without safebuckets, fluid grief is still possible. I occasionally saw grief of builds where there was already flowing water/lava on survival, and even the worst of these took ~10 minutes (not several hours) to fix. Remember at this time, a huge proportion of visitors were avo followers AND that logblock didn't really roll anything back right.

I generally agree with slide that such a change shouldn't be an unnecessary burden on staff, my point is that I don't think it will be. I hate to keep restating the same point, but other survival minecraft also face the problem "what should we do about flowing water?" and in most other cases the answer is "log it!" rather than "disallow it!". I still haven't really seen anyone explain what important different MCPublic has that would justify taking a more restrictive approach. Other servers have staff who also deal with fluid grief!

[edk]

To clarify further: my point is that *MCPublic* chooses to deal with grief differently from other servers. The *reasoning* we have currently for *requiring* safebuckets *is* the fact that fixing things that do not roll back correctly takes much more time, not to mention mental effort, and anyone who uses their *brains* knows that can wear you out.

 

The only reason you think MCPublic requires SafeBuckets is that it's been in place since long before you were even modded. If Amaranth and I had instead written a plugin that disabled diamonds, no doubt you'd be here zealously defending the position that diamonds make the server more difficult to moderate.

[zifnab06]

I've suggested Glacier in a meeting a few months ago for PvE, but there were some concerns about permissions in large town-type protections, which can reach upwards of 200 members in a single protection, and how that would complicate things. 

 

I've talked to the author of the plugin about this, but from what I can remember, we came to the conclusion that there would have to be an exclusive distinction between the type of protection in WorldGuard (town or private) for Glacier to hook into, which doesn't currently exist.

 

This is just a thought, however:

 

Only allow region owners to place flowing water. Require the player to be an owner on at least one of the regions they're placing water in. That way, town owners can place water, and people who have subregions within towns can place water in their subregion.

 

(On a related note: I'm on the tech team of the server who Glacier was written for. We're more than willing to accept pullrequests and feature requests. This might even be something I'm interested in adding.)

[slide]

The only reason you think MCPublic requires SafeBuckets is that it's been in place since long before you were even modded. If Amaranth and I had instead written a plugin that disabled diamonds, no doubt you'd be here zealously defending the position that diamonds make the server more difficult to moderate.

 

So let me get this right edk, you, a former mod, who no longer plays and who gives nothing back to these servers except for your ire and contempt, is saying that I am a shill that just does, what, keeps the status quo? In actuality, I know exactly what it takes to run these servers, seeing as I'm one of the people ACTUALLY running the servers.... dedicating countless hours of my time to the people who do actually play.

[Denevien]

As I've done before, and will do again if needed, I'm closing this thread. The forums are for us (players and staff alike) to come share our opinions and have mature discussions. Someone can feel free to start a new thread of the same topic, and everyone is welcome to try discussing this again.

[WickedCoolSteve]

I just want to add something, hopefully to help inform the next thread. 

 

First off I think it would be awesome if everyone just took a day or so to chill out. 

 

Second, when the new thread is open please, please, please remember that there is a substantive technical and policy issue to be discussed. We can all debate the merits of all sides of the topic without resorting to implied or explicit personal attacks. 

 

To the staff I say please keep in mind that players you disagree with have valid points, even if they may be brought up in a manner you find impolite or disrespectful. 

 

To everyone else I say please keep in mind that there is no conspiracy or power grab that is fighting to maintain the status quo here. The current policy is in place for reasons that made sense in the past and may (or may not) make sense now. 

 

We must be able to talk and debate the issue without lowering ourselves to the level of petty attacks and pissing matches consisting of arguments about who's the bigger douchebag. Let's all be cool and do this right and in the process help move MCPublic forward and make it a better place.