The future of SafeBuckets on S

[SpiderMan]

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Original Post:

 

The plugin SafeBuckets, the one that makes our water still by default, I feel has become more and more useless lately, and I think its future needs a serious discussion.

 

I feel that SafeBuckets needs to be unplugged, and here is why:

 

First of all SafeBuckets is very un-vanilla as a plugin, since it's not normal to see still liquid in Vanilla Minecraft, and thus goes against the server's theme.

Secondly the still water it gives is rather useless. While it does make water elevators and some lava killing machines easier to build, it does not really add anything irreplaceable to the game: some signs surrounding flowing liquids will accomplish the same thing still water gives to us now. And while some water elevators arguably look prettier without signs in between water blocks, I would not consider water elevators pretty to begin with. Some may disagree.

 

But most importantly I feel that SafeBuckets's primary function as a grief-prevention plugin is so unimportant that it practically does not matter. Griefers, as far as I can tell, are not persistent enough to acquire a bucket just to knock someone's flowers or torches over. And even if they were, the loss is hardly meaningful. As for more serious griefing like murdering with lava or making derpy lava walls around, those are easily traceable nowadays.

 

At worst a griefer may attack someone's rails or redstone, which is actually quite severe, but that they can do with natural liquid sources even now. A much better option would be to write a plugin that makes rails and redstone waterproof.

 

A plugin like that at least would not encumber the staff day and night, like SafeBuckets does.

 

SafeBuckets also makes a few things if no impossible, at least very hard: It is impossible to dispense flowing liquids and this must be worked around with silly piston gates. Making ponds is tough because of the glitchy interaction with still and flowing water that makes some parts of the potential pond not fill up like it is supposed to. Nowadays you'd need constant mod surveillance just to make an artificial lake.

 

The absence of SafeBuckets would obviously be beneficial for everyday building, but it would be particularly useful for making grinders. For example in a skeleton grinder getting the water to flow immediately would make building much less dangerous much faster. In an Ender grinder the benefit of getting immediate water cover is obvious.

 

In summary, SafeBuckets is un-vanilla, seriously hinders everyday building, encumbers staff, and is irrelevant against griefing. If I was king, I'd replace it with another plugin like the one described above.

 

But, all of the above was only what I think. I may be right, I may be wrong, some may even disagree. What I want here is a serious discussion on this matter. The server's interests are largely also my interests, and that's why I'd want a thorough investigation about this matter so at the end of the day we can be sure we're making the right decision.

 

 

Please keep this thread free from personal attacks against players, thanks!

 

- gsand

;D

 

 

Edit: If you disagree, please don't just downvote, also contribute your opinion below -gsand ;D

Edited January 18, 2014 by gsand

[roastnewt]

A much better option would be to write a plugin that makes rails and redstone waterproof.

 

A plugin like that at least would not encumber the staff day and night, like SafeBuckets does.

 

I think this is a much better solution than SafeBuckets.

 

I spent this morning making this:  https://github.com/roastnewt/WaterProofBlocks

 

It's a relatively simple plugin, and shouldn't cause much lag, as the event that it cancels is only called when the water is updating.  I can tweak it however the mods like, if they want to use it.

[barneygale]

Seems like a solid solution and more than adequate for a trial run.

[slide]

The first argument is that safebuckets is non vanilla, however the proposed changes, in my opinion stray even further from the vanilla style. At least safebuckets is toggle-able.

 

In terms of safebuckets grief prevention measures I feel its value is being very underestimated. Every single chaos gives weight to it being invaluable, as spawn is almost immediately covered in lava. Not to mention there is a strong correlation between griefing and using hacked clients, it's rather simple for them to obtain x-ray'd ore to quickly make a bucket. Dismissing its value because we don't get griefed using buckets, where it actually lends more credibility to the fact that we need it, as it appears to be working. In fact I followed someone on C last week attempting to place hundreds of blocks of water which would have washed away lots of redstone and rails.

 

In terms of moderating. A modreq for flowing water takes a mod roughly 30 seconds to complete, which is quite negligible. On the other hand, rail and redstone grief with flowing liquids takes much more time and removing the ability of them to be washed away feels too much like a softening of the game for my liking. Furthermore, the current state of rolling back flowing water and its effects are poor to say the least. Rails do not come back to their original orientation nor does redstone maintain its original state and cases where this happens can take the staff hours to fix.

 

In terms of players using liquids, the only situations where I see it being necessary to have live action flowing water is for building where it lets you build under blocks or get safely to the ground. Any other situation you still have to take the exact same amount of time to place the water in the correct place. In fact in no way should it be harder to build a grinder with still water, if anything it would be easier because you are not being pushed around constantly trying to place/break blocks. Come to think of it, as long as you place torches, neither method is dangerous at all.

 

The next argument is that safebuckets does not support dispensers. Actually, it does, or at least I have already developed this feature into safebuckets, not sure if I've pushed it into the public repo or not, but it would simply require a modreq and a dispenser would then be allowed to dispense flowing liquids.

 

As always, please keep replies respectful.

[zifnab06]

In terms of moderating. A modreq for flowing water takes a mod roughly 30 seconds to complete, which is quite negligible.

 

The next argument is that safebuckets does not support dispensers. Actually, it does, or at least I have already developed this feature into safebuckets, not sure if I've pushed it into the public repo or not, but it would simply require a modreq and a dispenser would then be allowed to dispense flowing liquids.

 

For part one, it is a really quick modreq for staff to complete. However, especially on S, I know I've been stuck waiting for a few hours before to get water flowed.

 

You are correct on part two. I've made modreqs and have been told that it can't be done in the past. (Its quite easy: get a flowing block added outside the dispenser, and the dispenser will flow from then on)

[roastnewt]

The first argument is that safebuckets is non vanilla, however the proposed changes, in my opinion stray even further from the vanilla style. At least safebuckets is toggle-able.

 

I disagree, you can see at a glance that S is non-vanilla, with the preponderance of water ladders and lava blades.  All the plugin does is stop water from destroying redstone contraptions.  If the argument is about which one changes the day-to-day player interactions with water and lava the most, hands-down safebuckets is less vanilla.

 

In terms of safebuckets grief prevention measures I feel its value is being very underestimated. Every single chaos gives weight to it being invaluable, as spawn is almost immediately covered in lava. Not to mention there is a strong correlation between griefing and using hacked clients, it's rather simple for them to obtain x-ray'd ore to quickly make a bucket. Dismissing its value because we don't get griefed using buckets, where it actually lends more credibility to the fact that we need it, as it appears to be working. In fact I followed someone on C last week attempting to place hundreds of blocks of water which would have washed away lots of redstone and rails.

 

Firstly, C is a different creature, because buckets are infinite, so the ability to grief with water and lava is much greater.  Safebuckets should probably remain on C, but we're talking about S.  I also think chaos is a different beast, as griefing is allowed.

 

Safebuckets trades player convenience for preventing a specific type of grief.  The question is whether it's still worth that inconvenience, with the improvements in Logblock's ability to roll back lava and water.

 

Furthermore, the current state of rolling back flowing water and its effects are poor to say the least. Rails do not come back to their original orientation nor does redstone maintain its original state and cases where this happens can take the staff hours to fix.

 

That's the only thing that logblock can't roll back properly, which is the point of the plugin I posted above.  With such a plugin, I can't imagine an instance of griefing that would take more than a few minutes to rollback.  And even if there were, the amount of mod time saved by not doing water/lava flow requests (90+% of modreqs) would more than balance it out.  By the way, the same redstone issue can arise with someone with a pick destroying the blocks underneath redstone machines.

 

In terms of players using liquids, the only situations where I see it being necessary to have live action flowing water is for building where it lets you build under blocks or get safely to the ground. Any other situation you still have to take the exact same amount of time to place the water in the correct place. In fact in no way should it be harder to build a grinder with still water, if anything it would be easier because you are not being pushed around constantly trying to place/break blocks. Come to think of it, as long as you place torches, neither method is dangerous at all.

 

Almost every mob grinder design I can think of requires flowing water.  Flowing water makes building in the end easier.  Not having to wait for an infinite water source makes many other types of building faster.  Flowing water makes building farms easier.  There are millions of uses for flowing water.

 

However, especially on S, I know I've been stuck waiting for a few hours before to get water flowed.

 

+1, I built a skeleton grinder last week, there were no mods on for over 6 hours, I ended up building a aqueduct from the closest ocean to make my own flowing water.

Edited January 6, 2014 by roastnewt

[slide]

I disagree, you can see at a glance that S is non-vanilla, with the preponderance of water ladders and lava blades.  All the plugin does is stop water from destroying redstone contraptions.  If the argument is about which one changes the day-to-day player interactions with water and lava the most, hands-down safebuckets is less vanilla.

Water ladders and lava blades can easily be accomplished with signs so I don't see those as non-vanilla.

 

 

Firstly, C is a different creature, because buckets are infinite, so the ability to grief with water and lava is much greater.  Safebuckets should probably remain on C, but we're talking about S. 

 

Buckets are essentially infinite in survival as well with infinite wells.

 

 

Almost every mob grinder design I can think of requires flowing water.  Flowing water makes building in the end easier.  Not having to wait for an infinite water source makes many other types of building faster.  Flowing water makes building farms easier.  There are millions of uses for flowing water.

Flowing water is required to make it work, but not to build, which is the point he was making.

[edk]

The first argument is that safebuckets is non vanilla, however the proposed changes, in my opinion stray even further from the vanilla style. At least safebuckets is toggle-able.

 

In terms of safebuckets grief prevention measures I feel its value is being very underestimated. Every single chaos gives weight to it being invaluable, as spawn is almost immediately covered in lava. Not to mention there is a strong correlation between griefing and using hacked clients, it's rather simple for them to obtain x-ray'd ore to quickly make a bucket. Dismissing its value because we don't get griefed using buckets, where it actually lends more credibility to the fact that we need it, as it appears to be working. In fact I followed someone on C last week attempting to place hundreds of blocks of water which would have washed away lots of redstone and rails.

 

In terms of moderating. A modreq for flowing water takes a mod roughly 30 seconds to complete, which is quite negligible. On the other hand, rail and redstone grief with flowing liquids takes much more time and removing the ability of them to be washed away feels too much like a softening of the game for my liking. Furthermore, the current state of rolling back flowing water and its effects are poor to say the least. Rails do not come back to their original orientation nor does redstone maintain its original state and cases where this happens can take the staff hours to fix.

 

In terms of players using liquids, the only situations where I see it being necessary to have live action flowing water is for building where it lets you build under blocks or get safely to the ground. Any other situation you still have to take the exact same amount of time to place the water in the correct place. In fact in no way should it be harder to build a grinder with still water, if anything it would be easier because you are not being pushed around constantly trying to place/break blocks. Come to think of it, as long as you place torches, neither method is dangerous at all.

 

The next argument is that safebuckets does not support dispensers. Actually, it does, or at least I have already developed this feature into safebuckets, not sure if I've pushed it into the public repo or not, but it would simply require a modreq and a dispenser would then be allowed to dispense flowing liquids.

 

As always, please keep replies respectful.

 

Firstly... SafeBuckets is toggle-able? I'm not sure what you mean here, but I don't see how it's toggle-able or how it would be any less non-vanilla if it were.

 

Usually on Chaos revs, spreading lava everywhere is allowed, if not actively encouraged. The fact that people follow the rules on Chaos does not, in my view, constitute an argument that everyone with a bucket will be falling over themselves to pour lava all over spawn with it on Survival.

 

Concerning "it's easy for a griefer with xray to make a bucket", I think it would be considerably easier to grief using other tools (like a pickaxe).

 

Keep in mind that redstone contraptions on survival are often built in enclosed spaces and are *already* a pain to fix. Rails running parallel without a gap - the configuration that LogBlock doesn't roll back reliably - aren't terribly common on S either.

 

On to "in terms of moderating...": The point isn't how long it takes a moderator to fulfil a request; it's how much time is spent waiting for a moderator by players. For those with limited time available to play Minecraft, it can be incredibly frustrating if half of it is spent waiting for a mod to get round to their modreq. There was often a backlog of several hours when I last played S, and I've been given to understand the under-staffing problem there has become even worse since. To compound this issue, it's not unheard-of for grinders or other machines to need water placed in confined spaces and/or in a specific order, which can mean several modreqs have to be made to get the water where you want it.

 

Following on from that, actually I think live action flowing water is essential in some cases; particularly when you're building something and not quite sure of all the details. If you're a mod, you can just keep flowing new water when the design changes--if not, you might be reduced to building things in a singleplayer creative world before attempting them "live". Other cases in which it's important include building in the end as has already been mentioned.

 

Finally, you haven't addressed this bit at all: "Making ponds is tough because of the glitchy interaction with still and flowing water that makes some parts of the potential pond not fill up like it is supposed to. Nowadays you'd need constant mod surveillance just to make an artificial lake."

[ROCKONN]

Congrats Newt! You found a way to do it yourself! Meaning its possible for anyone to with enough patience & dedication. Or they could use the dispenser trick. Or they could wait for a mod to place it for them. Any of those ways currently work.

 

"Firstly, C is a different creature, because buckets are infinite, so the ability to grief with water and lava is much greater.  Safebuckets should probably remain on C, but we're talking about S.  I also think chaos is a different beast, as griefing is allowed."

 

Just to take note on this, to say that each server is its own beast where laws governing griefing is concerned is inaccurate. We know from experience that the potential for griefing, for bypassing protections with flowing water, is & will always be there. We know that some people are more inclined to use buckets as their go-to method for doing so. Limiting the use of buckets in that regard, with those intentions, is one of the sanest decisions Nerd has ever made. So you have to wait a bit for a moderator to get to you, its your choice whether to stand around & wait or go out & cut some throats.

 

Due to the ease of /fixwater, and the ability to just place flowing water in general, modreqs for flowing water are usually snatched up quickly as a moderator notices them. If there's not a mod on, that's no-ones fault. If there's one on, and they're in the middle of their own gameplay, same deal. You'll be gotten to when you'll be gotten to.

 

Now mind you, there's nothing I enjoy more on other pvp servers than dropping a bucket of lava onto someone, except the use of an occasional tnt cannon, but in the interest of protecting the landscape & players from unfortunate attacks by those who wish us harm, I believe that Safebuckets is the proper choice to protect our servers as a whole.

 

The first weapon we have against griefers, hackers, etc is prevention of their actions in the first place. Safebuckets, along with NCP and other tools, helps everyone to prevent possible issues. A 3-minute waiting period for a pond to be filled is a small price to pay, but well-worth it.

Edited January 6, 2014 by ROCKONN

[barneygale]

3 minutes might be a somewhat conservative estimate.

[roastnewt]

Congrats Newt! You found a way to do it yourself! Meaning its possible for anyone to with enough patience & dedication. Or they could use the dispenser trick. Or they could wait for a mod to place it for them. Any of those ways currently work.

 

Yes, but spending an hour building a temporary aqueduct, then filling it in when done to re-secure my base is hardly ideal.  I don't know what dispenser trick you're referring to, but the water/lava that comes out of dispensers does not flow.

 

 

A 3-minute waiting period for a pond to be filled is a small price to pay, but well-worth it.

 

I've never ONCE had a request for water take 3 minutes.  If it were 3 minutes, there'd be no issue with safebuckets.  It can already take hours, and it's the beginning of the rev.  Towards the end of the revision, it can be days before a mod comes online to do requests.  You're minimizing the downsides of safebuckets, and exaggerating its upsides.

[WickedCoolSteve]

I think, from the perspective of someone on staff, it's easy to reflexively say that we should keep things the same because that's how it's always been, it's kept us safe, ect ect. I know I personally have this impulse when initially presented with changes in policy like this. Hell, I remember back when safebuckets was introduced. Back then all liquids were mod placed and there were reservations about letting players lay down any kind of liquid without staff involvement. But in the end people opened their minds to change and a competent (at least for the time) technical solution was implemented. The world didn't end and the final result was an improvement in the experience for both players and staff. 

 

Now, times have changed. I'm not saying people have changed, because they haven't. There are tons of good people that play here, but there are also legions of trolls and griefers hanging around. Such is the nature of a non whitelist server. The risk from human behavior is the same as always. What has changed is the technical side of things. Smart people with good ideas have come up with new solutions.

 

I think in general we should push to reduce limits on gameplay as much as possible. Fewer modreqs mean players get to play more instead of waiting around and staff get to play more instead of dealing with fairly menial tasks. There is a certain probability of increased fluid griefing, yes. But perhaps the gain in overall enjoyment of the game and servers by everyone involved outweighs that risk.   

 

That being said, there are specific risks with regards to liquids that do need to be adressed and I admit my knowledge of how certain plugins work these days is probably a bit out of date. For example, if someone managed to dump a bucket of water into a complex redstone contraption like a CARTS computer (http://redditpublic.com/wiki/CARTS) would logblock be able to roll it back and not fuck things up? If not, would it be possible to prevent fluid damage to redstone and rail without causing massive server load like the last time we tried it (good ol summer 2011)?

 

There are merits to change here, sure. But in my opinion there are also a lot of potential issues that would have to be addressed before the benefits of the change outweigh the risks. 

[tobylane]

An alternative to waterproof blocks is surely logged directionality of rails/repeaters, states of comparators? Is there anything saved in a world save that shouldn't be in logblock? I'm not for it, just that I hadn't seen it mentioned.

[Denevien]

I really believe at this point it is up to the Server Admins. They can decide if these changes are something they want to make or not.

[coolgamerovr90]

If we are going to completely get rid of SafeBuckets altogether, we would have to consider another plugin like this one, and even then that doesn't solve the issues with lava, etc as I said in the last thread

I spent this morning making this:  https://github.com/roastnewt/WaterProofBlocks

[SpiderMan]

I'd like to thank Denevien for being the voice of reason.

 

Also, Please keep this from a player perspective, not everyone is a moderator and can expedite water modreqs.

 

Also, not all players play during peak hours when moderators are on.

 

Also, please stop with the pettiness.

 

Also, remember that this thread is for the SURVIVAL server only.

 

Thanks,

 

- gsand

;D

Edited January 6, 2014 by gsand

[Gizzletinks]

personally, I don't mind having to have my water flowed. It's well worth it to keep my redstone from getting griefed and to lag the server less

[SpiderMan]

Anyways, Back on Topic.

 

I think we should run a vote on S using NuVote to see what the actual active player base thinks.

 

- gsand

;D

 

Edit: If you disagree with anything I have posted, I urge you to reply, All opinions are greatly appreciated! -gsand ;D

Edited January 6, 2014 by gsand

[coolgamerovr90]

Anyways, Back on Topic.

 

I think we should run a vote on S using NuVote to see what the actual active player base thinks.

 

- gsand

;D

 

Edit: If you disagree with anything I have posted, I urge you to reply, All opinions are greatly appreciated! -gsand ;D

Or a [server] Alert linking the playerbase on S to this forum post, to make them notice it better have it tell them about this post upon log in

 

Also NuVote is a really old plugin that hasen't been used in a very, very long time. The plugin itself is still compatible with 1.7.2 Bukkit though if interested, as I just tested it out.

Edited January 6, 2014 by coolgamerovr90

[SpiderMan]

That too could also work, Cool Gamer!

 

- gsand

;D

[meno]

VOICE OF REASON INCOMING

I was around at the introduction of safe buckets, so I recall the huge debate that surrounded it. One of the biggest driving factors for the implementation was that so many players were having mods place obscene amounts of lava that would take days upon days of nether travel to even hope to replicate. Safe buckets created a method such that players were required to gather their own water/lava rather than having infinite amounts doled out by staff.

I noticed a couple of times where you guys said that it takes hours for your water requests to be filled, so I have a quick explanation/solution for your you. I don't log onto S except to check if a specific player is currently on that server. I also don't generally check modreqs even when I joined the because most of them seem to be grieving without fixing or land disputes and I don't deal with that. However, the modreqs of C and P are almost always empty. As placement requests are super quick, just pop on P for a moment and ask if a mod can do your water req. I'll let the other (more active) staff clarify on this point, but I'd be more than glad to switch servers (especially with the new lobby system) and finish your request.

This all coming from a guy who just instantly fills his own water/lava requests, so I can't comment on things surrounding that.

[redwall_hp]

I usually give flow requests a high priority, as I'm aware that the wait can hold up players' plans. (There's also a standing policy for staff to not flow their own water until pending modreqs are completed.) The turnaround time does seem to be faster on PvE, as there are frequently more moderators online, which I suppose is an issue.

 

I agree with meno, though. Do a /list-all and see where the moderators are. If there's nobody on your server to complete your request, you can use /pve (or the appropriate server command) to jump over and ask if someone isn't too busy to come over and complete the request.

 

I would like to see, if it's something the techs could feasibly implement, a command that allows moderators to check open modreqs on other servers. (A counterpart to /list-all and the server-hopping commands.) So they could see if there are waiting reqs open on another server and switch to complete them if they've been left unattended for awhile.

[SpiderMan]

This Thread has Reached a Resolution, Please Close.

 

- gsand

;D

 

Edit:

 

Due to popular opinion, this thread must go on!

Edited January 7, 2014 by gsand

[Mumberthrax]

Griefers, as far as I can tell, are not persistent enough to acquire a bucket just to knock someone's flowers or torches over. And even if they were, the loss is hardly meaningful.

 

Evidence for this? Conversations with moderators/admins for servers of comparable size without safebuckets or something similar?

[SpiderMan]

Evidence for this? Conversations with moderators/admins for servers of comparable size without safebuckets or something similar?

 

Tons, as someone who is plays/mods/admins on another server with over 500 simultaneous players at any time, small stuff like that is simply not a big deal.

You don't have to take my word for it, ask four_down.

 

- gsand

;D

Edited January 7, 2014 by gsand