Survival Survival Server General Meeting. Please read for important information regarding the meeting including the time and agenda.

[Mrloud15]

If you would like to speak to me about this in PM, please do, because I honestly don't know what problems you're talking about.

 

The only thing I've spoken to you about is a desire to see major changes happen to S, because what's happening now isn't working.  I hope this meeting is a step in that direction.

No. Part of the problem is that you guys, roastnewt and a very specific group of players, like to keep everything in pm's, or in mumble where there is no logs. You are very passive aggressive, [retracted because logs can not be publicly provided] , and over all are very rude in the private conversations you have with us. I'm more than willing to talk to you, but not in private. 

[buchanman]

I think we've had out fair share of pre-meeting excitement, yeah?

 

Back on topic, I think this is a very good step forward. I also agree with barneygale saying how we can have an admin tell us what plan of action will take place. However, this is possibly not best to do during the meeting, but perhaps a few hours/a day after the meeting for the admin to get together and make a solid plan of action. Keep in mind however, we as players have the power to get things done as well. If you can type up a plugin that S could use, great! If you found a plugin that resembles the final decision on what to do and want to share it, better! Let's not put the full responsibility on S admins when we can do something other than complain.

[Mrloud15]

I have a request.

 

If there are topics in the meeting where everyone or nearly everyone agrees, the admins should state what their plan is for the idea. Implement immediately? Discussion with heads within 1 week? Technical evaluation lasting 1 month? etc.

 

I don't want this to be another meeting where we decide everything but plan nothing.

I think that's fair request. How about one week after the meetings we will post what our plans are with dates for when they will be implemented? That should give us more than enough time to talk to the techs, heads, and anyone else we need to about implementing something.

[roastnewt]

No. Part of the problem is that you guys, roastnewt and a very specific group of players, like to keep everything in pm's, or in mumble where there is no logs. You are very passive aggressive, attempt to intimidate with us, and over all are very rude in the private conversations you have with us. I'm more than willing to talk to you, but not in private. 

 

You paint with broad strokes.

 

I have never attempted to intimidate you, ever.

 

I complain about Survival a lot, because I (still) really enjoy the server and the friends I've made here, and want to see it succeed.  And I still don't know what incidents you're talking about.

 

It's up to both the players and admins to make S work, not just one group

 

...

 

You do nothing to try to fix these problems, but you always seem to be one of the loudest ones complaining.   

 

I've personally offered my help with multiple issues on multiple occasions, but have always been rejected.  I've reported many dupe glitches, hackers, and even submitted a couple Pull Requests to nerd's github.  What more can one do as a player?  Looking over the suggestions, 99% of them would have to be implemented by an admin.  If I could help make those changes, I would.

 

EDIT:  MrLoud and I have taken this to IRC, which is public, but can allow this thread to remain sort of on topic, if it can.

Edited May 13, 2014 by roastnewt

[totemo]

I commend the S admins and technical admins for their efforts and patience.  Without their efforts, S simply would not exist in any form.

 

I believe the primary purpose of this comment thread is to discuss the suggestions listed in the Spoiler section of Mrloud's post.

[EeHee2000]

I think it's great that we're having another meeting, it's nearly always a great way to keep the entire Survival playerbase (staff and defaults alike) up-to-date on current issues, as well as things that we need to look into improving. I'll be there if I can make it. 

[Richi]

 

-Protect mobs

 

 

-PvE areas (with combattag-like cooldown) under some circumstances

 

 

- re-enterable pve spawn, spawn used to be a central part of the server, we have worked too hard to spread players out, thus removing this central area

 

 

- Designated PvE areas... imagine the towns of the PvE server on the PvP server! That would be so cool!

 

 

- Unique maps w/ some PvE areas, altered ore gen, buffs, etc.

 

 

- re-enterable pve spawn, spawn used to be a central part of the server, we have worked too hard to spread players out, thus removing this central area

I think mcpublic can no longer support a separate PVP server and will have to merge aspects of PVE with survival as was done in the past.

 

 

-Basically, I’m trying to tie the dynamics of PVP and PVE into each other

 

 

- Protection of animals. I know, I know, it's survival, deal with it. But really, why is it grief to not replant a farm, but not so to kill one's animals. IIRC mods can now track animals, I believe they do on PvE.

 

For the pvp in pve towns, we can maybe give it a try on a event / dev server. Otherwise, no thank you. We do not need a second p, at all.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Richi

[JackTheLumberr]

Major change

 

-More difficult

 

-More oriented on PVP

 

-Radically change (Fuck Vanilla this does't work anymore)

 

-PVP faction In Nerd style

 

Minor change

 

- Ore plumping maybe just iron

 

- Enchanting no more prot IV sharp V

 

And a looooot of things!

Edited May 13, 2014 by JackTheLumberr

[dizney07]

Major change

 

-More difficult

 

-More oriented on PVP

 

-Radically change (Fuck Vanilla this does't work anymore)

 

-PVP faction In Nerd style

 

Minor change

 

- Ore plumping maybe just iron

 

- Enchanting no more prot IV sharp V

 

And a looooot of things!

What do you mean "More difficult"? 

[barneygale]

We always seem to be trying to balance two competing factors with survival: making it easier for noobs, and making it harder for experienced players.

 

Perhaps we need to shake it up drastically and try something that levels the playerbase, making everyone relatively nooby, rather than having this big gulf between new players and us oldies.

 

I'm always recalling "the good ol' days" of early revs (particularly 5-10), before the complications of sprinting, hunger or aimable bows. For a long time I've blamed survival's decreasing fun levels on "new minecraft", where we have to build and grind for hours (usually in a clan) to stand a chance in PVP, and then do it all over again when we die. While I think that's partially to blame for vanilla's diminishing appeal, it's also worth considering that in the olden days, really none of us knew what we were doing, and that was the fun of it. The MCPublic survival server felt unexplored - no-one really knew what its limit was, what the best stategy was, or how to be "the best". Every rev seemed to bring new ideas, new projects, new dynamics. There was grumbling about the state of clans, and even back then people complained survival wasn't what it used to be (I'm looking at you, toastthemost), but I think the majority of us felt optimistic and open-minded about survival's future.

 

Now I feel like every rev, people are in this mindset of "this might be the last fun revision" - that no-one has much hope.

 

So I'm sort-of in the "radical" camp where I'd really like to see survival (as we know it) disappear to be replaced by a more interesting, more unique server. We'll probably lose a few die-hard vanilla fans along the way (sorry c4 and many survival admins of the past), but the majority of the community would endure and greatly expand with many new members.

 

Quite what that server would be I don't really know. We've had good ideas floating around at a nerd splinter server that started in 2012, but it's never got off the ground due to lack active staff - and while that may sound a lot like nerd, nerd actually has a whole heap of untapped potential in its playerbase for map-making and code-writing.

 

I have an idea of how we could get there though, which is mentioned in my submission to the poll. If we hold a really good fundraiser (and I've got 3 decent ideas at varying stages of design) we could invest in a second server box, dedicated to experimental and short-lived servers. With enough community involvement we could write some nice custom mechanics, or tweak some existing ones. When we find something sufficiently fun, deep, good for different playstyles, etc etc, then we replace the current survival server and start at rev1. For once we'll all be excited to see what the coming months will bring.

 

Just offering this idea up, would be nice to hear some criticism.

Edited May 13, 2014 by barneygale

[barneygale]

TL;DR: vanilla is boooooring; everyone already knows exactly what they're doing before the rev starts; everyone thinks survival won't improve so they don't bother trying; time to hold a kickass fundraiser, buy a new box, run experimental smp servers on it, eventually replace s.nerd.nu with the best.

 

edit: and thanks for your response mrloud! :D

Edited May 13, 2014 by barneygale

[JackTheLumberr]

Barney is right

Edited May 13, 2014 by JackTheLumberr

[JackTheLumberr]

I mean not a x8 exp, and not an OP enchanting system. (People are just zergling with stone sharp V... this is not what we are looking for)

[JackTheLumberr]

What do you mean "More difficult"?

I mean not a x8 exp, and not an OP enchanting system. (People are just zergling with stone sharp V... this is not what we are looking for)

[dizney07]

I mean not a x8 exp, and not an OP enchanting system. (People are just zergling with stone sharp V... this is not what we are looking for)

But without that, there's less incentive to grind for armor. I normally have to spend about an hour making a set that I either never use, or lose in a quick match because I'm bad at pvp. It's pretty hard to practice and get better when you can't go into multiple fights in a day without grinding hard the day before. Which then leads to why should I pvp, I'm just gonna lose my sets, which leads to why should I even play on this server when I don't even pvp. Honestly the only reason I still play on the servers is the friends I made before enchants were a thing and everyone pvp'd and had a good time. I'm still holding out that S will get back to where it once was, but making the game even more difficult to pvp wont increase pvp on the server.

[JackTheLumberr]

But without that, there's less incentive to grind for armor. I normally have to spend about an hour making a set that I either never use, or lose in a quick match because I'm bad at pvp. It's pretty hard to practice and get better when you can't go into multiple fights in a day without grinding hard the day before. Which then leads to why should I pvp, I'm just gonna lose my sets, which leads to why should I even play on this server when I don't even pvp. Honestly the only reason I still play on the servers is the friends I made before enchants were a thing and everyone pvp'd and had a good time. I'm still holding out that S will get back to where it once was, but making the game even more difficult to pvp wont increase pvp on the server.

 

Yea but this is why Faction are good. You are not alone and with prot II MAX its way easier to have god stuff.

[EeHee2000]

Yea but this is why Faction are good. You are not alone and with prot II MAX its way easier to have god stuff.

I believe that plumped ores, coupled with less powerful enchanting abilities would lead to more clan/Faction styled PvP. 

Going out onto the streets alone with a set of Protection II Diamond Armor would be a stupid idea, because 3 decent fighters running around in Iron have a decent chance of taking you down. As a result, players would be more inclined to roam in packs. Once we eventually die, we can go mining for a few minutes, stumble upon a branch of Diamond, make a suit, grab a sword, get food, pearls, pots and jump back onto the roads; however most players simply don't want to do this. Why?

Because most of us are terrible at finding Diamonds. Plumped ores would give us a much better chance of actually getting any Dia in the first place. 

It'd be nice to try out a revision with less powerful enchants, especially considering we're trying to make some drastic changes at this point. Weapons/armor enchants would need to be toned down a few notches, such as Sharpness III being a top-tier enchant for swords, Protection II being top-tier for armor, etc. 

What I would hate to see, however, is the nerfing of tools such as Pickaxes, Shovels etc. If anything, I actually wouldn't mind them being a little more powerful. 

Fortune IV enchantments on picks would surely mean more Diamonds, which in turn leads to more suits/swords, which then leads to PvP. Personally, I see a lot of people saying that they have one godsword but they're too afraid to bust it out - the same goes for suits. The reason there's such a small amount of PvP is because there aren't enough people with decent gear to use in the first place. For the people in that situation, it's suicidal to go up against a pro with 10+ suits of Diamond Armor at their disposal. From my eyes, ore plumping is a great way to fix this - bringing in one of your suits is always better than fighting in your only suit. 

In regards to the maps themselves, I really think we should encourage players to explore the Amplified zone at the edges of the world. This doesn't mean everyone running off to the border, setting up a lavish 1x1 hole in the dirt and never returning to civilization, but rather people having a reason to venture to the Amplified biomes, spending a bit of time there and then returning to base. 

One way to go about this springs to mind:

Plumped Mob Spawning: 

The reason for this is fairly obvious. It's actually become very rare to run into a Cow on the Survival server, which isn't really a good thing. Some days, I see people in chat jumping for joy about finding a Pig. 

A good way to resolve this is to try and set the passive Mob spawning rate many notches up in Amplified biome - that'd kill two birds with one stone should people be inclined to go to the world-border.

Edited May 15, 2014 by EeHee2000

[JackTheLumberr]

I believe that plumped ores, coupled with less powerful enchanting abilities would lead to more clan/Faction styled PvP. 

Going out onto the streets alone with a set of Protection II Diamond Armor would be a stupid idea, because 3 decent fighters running around in Iron have a decent chance of taking you down. As a result, players would be more inclined to roam in packs. Once we eventually die, we can go mining for a few minutes, stumble upon a branch of Diamond, make a suit, grab a sword, get food, pearls, pots and jump back onto the roads; however most players simply don't want to do this. Why?

Because most of us are terrible at finding Diamonds. Plumped ores would give us a much better chance of actually getting any Dia in the first place. 

It'd be nice to try out a revision with less powerful enchants, especially considering we're trying to make some drastic changes at this point. Weapons/armor enchants would need to be toned down a few notches, such as Sharpness III being a top-tier enchant for swords, Protection II being top-tier for armor, etc. 

What I would hate to see, however, is the nerfing of tools such as Pickaxes, Shovels etc. If anything, I actually wouldn't mind them being a little more powerful. 

Fortune IV enchantments on picks would surely mean more Diamonds, which in turn leads to more suits/swords, which then leads to PvP. Personally, I see a lot of people saying that they have one godsword but they're too afraid to bust it out - the same goes for suits. The reason there's such a small amount of PvP is because there aren't enough people with decent gear to use in the first place. For the people in that situation, it's suicidal to go up against a pro with 10+ suits of Diamond Armor at their disposal. From my eyes, ore plumping is a great way to fix this - bringing in one of your suits is always better than fighting in your only suit. 

In regards to the maps themselves, I really think we should encourage players to explore the Amplified zone at the edges of the world. This doesn't mean everyone running off to the border, setting up a lavish 1x1 hole in the dirt and never returning to civilization, but rather people having a reason to venture to the Amplified biomes, spending a bit of time there and then returning to base. 

One way to go about this springs to mind:

Plumped Mob Spawning: 

The reason for this is fairly obvious. It's actually become very rare to run into a Cow on the Survival server, which isn't really a good thing. Some days, I see people in chat jumping for joy about finding a Pig. 

A good way to resolve this is to try and set the passive Mob spawning rate many notches up in Amplified biome - that'd kill two birds with one stone should people be inclined to go to the world-border.

 

I agree with some fact that you said, but I dont think plump diamond will change something. For the only reason the giving access to good things does't work. We try it with enchanting system and its does't work.

 

[TornadoHorse]

Because most of us are terrible at finding Diamonds.

 

That's impossible. If you strip mine, you've got as much of a chance to find diamonds as anyone else. I don't know how plumping ores would affect anything more than the XP plump and enchantism have already. Ores are easy to get at the moment, and we've already tried to make the grind to get armour easier. It's not positively impacted PvP levels at this point, so I think we might be barking up the wrong tree there.

[EeHee2000]

That's impossible. If you strip mine, you've got as much of a chance to find diamonds as anyone else. I don't know how plumping ores would affect anything more than the XP plump and enchantism have already. Ores are easy to get at the moment, and we've already tried to make the grind to get armour easier. It's not positively impacted PvP levels at this point, so I think we might be barking up the wrong tree there.

I guess I put that the wrong way - I generally meant to emphasize that many of us don't have the time/patience to go mining for extended periods of time.

[tobylane]

Many players here like to be solo. That is partly required because so many people burn out, player numbers, the fun and control of it and so on. Clans any more tightly bound than what we have now won't work, it'll be one sided. I believe the past proves this, though I wasn't around. Factions is ruled out by this, unless you have a heavily detailed idea of how it can be different. "More focused on PVP" is also ruled out by the past unless you have a heavily detailed idea. 

 

I like Barney's idea. But it weakens the hardcore players so based on the past I won't hold much hope. I get the feeling the central core of players who keep coming back want S to change, but not their S gameplay. They want whatever is cool at the moment because they invested time on this server and they see other servers have it. But many of the changes offered to them by the staff are turned down harshly. Mrloud's accusations against the core players are true. Look at how the S players respond to offered changes compared to P and C. Attitude matters, everything else is slow until that is dealt with.

[TornadoHorse]

Factions is ruled out by this, unless you have a heavily detailed idea of how it can be different. "More focused on PVP" is also ruled out by the past unless you have a heavily detailed idea.

 

These changes aren't only to make the experience more enjoyable for only the current players, it's to bring in more players so that, in turn, the current players have more fun and the whole server is improved. If we're purely focusing on what the current players want, we have pretty much nothing to go on and nothing will improve. We shouldn't rule out anything at this stage and we need to be as open-minded as possible about Survival's future.

[Ridiculous]

The current Sadmins are very unfortunate to have inherited a dying server. Understand that S’s community has been aware of its decline for at least a year, but have had their concerns ignored and their offers of help rejected.

 

Mrloud has done a very good thing by starting this process and it has a fair chance of success, especially if he takes Barney’s advice from earlier in the thread on implementation. Another fact is that, despite the good intentions of those involved, previous meetings have achieved nothing or even worse led to more alienating server policy. This makes mrloud’s job of responding to the community’s wishes even harder, but I think if TornadoHorse was finally appointed as an Sadmin the two of them would be able to work through any miscommunications (of the kind that’s cluttered the early part of this topic as well as this post :p).

 

Indeed, this thread has yet to focus on the areas of discussion which are relevant to the scale of the problems facing s.nerd.nu and by extent the whole of mcpublic. Farting around with buffs, plumps and the general debate over the principles of vanilla vs modded play will not stop S’s imminent collapse. S can only survive via a paradigm shift: a sudden, risky, drastic set of changes. I’m worried that the kinds of Survivals which might result from this would have too little in common with what’s great about S now, but the alternative is that those things should disappear completely in a scarily close future.

 

I think there are two distinct types of likely replacements for S. The first kind would be Barney’s smp experiments and I think S still has enough life left in it to be the genesis of completely new and exciting mc experiences. I imagine his will be the most likely outcome, but that outcome shouldn’t entirely please you. We would be incredibly lucky to hit on a formula as successful as S has been, it is far more likely that these experiments will lack that kind of endurance. We might end up introducing more instability and confusion into the running of the Server(s) in a fruitless search for a lasting alternative to what we already have. A future of fragmentation starting with S and following on P and C, as what happened to S repeats itself on them, is one in which mcpublic won’t be sustainable. The alternative suggestion is that we look for changes in S by incorporating it with “like” features from within the community. Put another way that means bringing S and P together in the same map (with C focused on creating content for this map) without completetly ruinning gameplay for the majority of players. This is possible if not palatable. In my opinion, it would mean refining the strengths of mcpublic and improving on its weaknesses and everyone will know that's the minimum requirement for servers looking to beat the competition for players.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Ridiculous

[barneygale]

The other server I mentioned was planning to do a joint PVP/PVE map - divided into 3 strips with PVP in the middle. PVP zone is plumped with more diamonds/mob drops/xp - best place to mine is the strip right down the middle of the map (x=0). I dunno, PVE folks seem to pine for some PVP actions sometimes. We had about 80% of the mechanics planned out. I could talk to the others about bringing the idea to nerd if it's really been mothballed now.

[barneygale]

Also I think having 2 meetings is silly. I know you're trying to make it more available to people in other timezones, but it's going to lead to very fragmented discussions and ideas. We've had good attendance scheduling for early evening US time on a weekend. Europeans can stay up late (but not unreasonably late), and it'd be morning for aussies, right?