Discussion on Modded Servers/Mini Games

[Mrloud15]

Hello everyone, this is the second of many post to discuss these topics. Please note that the creation of this thread is not an indication of any future plans by staff. These and similar question have been brought up by players as something they would like to discuss, so this tread was created. The next thread will be created in a few days.

 

Modded Servers/Mini Games

• Should we expand our current servers to more then just vanilla minecraft?

Please feel free to discuss these or similar questions, but please try to keep this thread on topic.

[SkrapssparkS]

Yes we should.

[dizney07]

Yes. Events and mini games will also help bring in players to all 3 of the main servers as well with the right advertising on the event server.  

[TheRandomnatrix]

A bit of a tough question to answer. I do feel ultimately that we need to expand beyond our current 3 servers, be that more minecraft servers, or (a bit off topic) other game servers orbiting the mcpublic community. In the interest of staying on topic I'll only address modded/minigame servers, though I feel the latter should also be addressed eventually.

 

In the past I've said no to both for various reasons, though I'm reconsidering.

 

Minigames:

 

Reluctantly, yes, but we'd have to have a lot of them. Like, a lot. Minigames have the problem of getting stale very quickly. Most large network servers I've seen these days include unlockables to artificially increase game play time by promoting grinding. This often leads to a slippery slope of "VIP for double points" crap that we'd need to be very careful not to let happen. They also require a large number of players somewhere in the hundreds to stay interesting, which I'm not sure we even have those numbers atm to be honest. We'd most likely have to have people writing up new minigames to keep things interesting, which is fine if volunteers want to do that, but I'm against dividing up the techs' time even more on something not high up on the priority list. As I've said in the past as well, minigames tend to attract casual no-strings-attached players who just come on to mess around and not be committed members of the community, which I feel isn't what we should be primarily catering to.

If it fails it'd just become another server slot that would die out quickly and we'd be stuck with for a while. Though if it's successful we could use it to rope new players into being members of the other servers.

 

Modded: Depends on how modded.

 

If you're talking plugin based stuff like MineZ, Factions, or some other type that basically uses vanilla as a base but changes it into something else to radically affect gameplay, then yes. I feel like it would need to be something fun, fleshed out, and completely unique to nerd however. Stuff like that would make us stand out among the hundreds of "Minigames Factions PvP Explosions" servers currently all over, and we could potentially use it to advertise if it gains traction(could even sneak it in as a /r/minecraft post when it first comes out for an initial burst of players along with advertising if we're smart about how we word it). I frequently visit large server networks for inspiration and most of them have that one game type everyone comes to that network to play, with the rest being just to keep people busy. If we could come up with something incredibly fun and immersive, then have dedicated people to make and maintain the plugins to run it, then I would support it. I have my concerns that it might split our community up a bit more, but I think ultimately it would be fine.

 

As for stuff like FTB/Tekkit, then no. Most of the modpacks are very intensive, with even small amounts of players causing strain to a server. There are most likely some modpacks out there intended to be more server friendly, but that brings me to my second point. That being that we would need to train staff specifically for dealing with modded gameplay, which is very difficult and further divides up our staff. Moderation would be difficult because these staff would have to deal with issues other staff that are unfamiliar with the mods would not understand. A rough example would be banning some player for building some laser which turned all of another player's magic trees into dragons. This would appear nonsensical to anyone unfamiliar with the mods, and would be tough to address if another staff member(for example a head) was needed. Third, modpacks tend to be unstable in most cases, with potentially server/client crashing bugs all around that would need to be micromanaged by staff. These mods are also changing all the time as they get updated, which leads to compatibility issues as we try to keep everything up to date. Finally, it would require a special launcher to use, which I feel increases the barrier of entry even more since you'd need to switch launchers to switch between the servers. I feel all of that adds up to being too much work to create and maintain, and would further alienate sections of our community from each other.

[Mumberthrax]

Just in defense of the client-side modded stuff like FTB, I want to say a few things:

 

I think it would be fun to have a nerd.nu server for mod packs like what are on FTB or ATlauncher. I've played modded minecraft for a while in singleplayer and enjoy it, but usually i find myself missing the ability to play with other people, to share in the experience. I have tried a few servers, but nothing really compares to what I've found at nerd in terms of mature staff, free, public, and fairness, and friendly community.

 

A while back it was suggested nerd branch out to be more than just a set of minecraft servers. If this is ever going to happen, a natural first step is toward modded minecraft via well-known public modpacks. Any changes in gameplay will necessitate training moderators on those changes, whether it's a new plugin for a minigame or if nerd suddenly began hosting a Trouble In Terrorist Town server.

 

Modded: [...] Most of the modpacks are very intensive, with even small amounts of players causing strain to a server. There are most likely some modpacks out there intended to be more server friendly [...]

 

Yes, and there are many configuration options, and server plugins to help reduce the impact of mods that may cause problems when abused. There are many mods which do not cause instability, which are purely aesthetics like Chisel or ExtraBiomesXL, some which are for aesthetics which have the potential for some minimal negative impact like Biomes O' Plenty or Forge Microblocks. With the aid of modifying config files, server plugins to disable undesired blocks/items/features, and rule enforcement on abuse of specific items, strain on the server can be minimized.

 

 but that brings me to my second point. That being that we would need to train staff specifically for dealing with modded gameplay, which is very difficult and further divides up our staff. Moderation would be difficult because these staff would have to deal with issues other staff that are unfamiliar with the mods would not understand. A rough example would be banning some player for building some laser which turned all of another player's magic trees into dragons. This would appear nonsensical to anyone unfamiliar with the mods, and would be tough to address if another staff member(for example a head) was needed.

 

I know that your example of using a laser to turn another players' trees into dragons was intended to be somewhat silly-sounding, and I don't know how handling that kind of situation would be different from a player chopping down another's trees and not replanting. It's true though that there would be some situations where because of the quirks in some mods, a moderator may not know how to proceed, and would then need some training on how the mods work. I don't imagine this would be particularly difficult, and may even be enjoyable for the moderator considering he or she probably would not be moderating the server if they didn't already play on it as is usually the case with our existing servers.

 

I'd like to point out that it's been suggested in the past that nerd.nu branch out from being solely a minecraft community into becoming a more generalized gaming community. With the recent events in the minecraft world, that might even be a neccesity. If we were ever to host servers for others games, Trouble in Terrorist Town for example, we would need to train moderators there as well. FTB or other modpack franchises are a natural step in that direction for a vanilla minecraft community.

 

I think it would be appropriate to try out a test server, try to break it or cause problems that our vanilla moderators would not be able to handle, before deciding that they are incapable of dealing with it. Whether it is a client-side modpack like in the FTB franchise, or a minigames server or server that is heavily modified with plugins, there would be changes mods would have to adapt to.

 

 Third, modpacks tend to be unstable in most cases, with potentially server/client crashing bugs all around that would need to be micromanaged by staff. These mods are also changing all the time as they get updated, which leads to compatibility issues as we try to keep everything up to date.

 

It's true that some modpacks are unstable. There are some mods that are more problematic than others, and really just some aspects or features of those mods. Most servers use a combination of the following strategies to deal with these:

 

1) select a modpack that is mostly stable to begin with

2) disable features that are known to cause problems via config files and server plugins designed for this

3) enforce rules on abuse of mod features, similar to our rules about creating lag machines, but with directions specific to the mods (like, if you have a buildcraft quarry, you must have a system to shut it off when the inventory is filled, here is an example of said system: etc.)

 

tracking down problems would be additional work. There are server plugins which help, but it is true that if problems arise it would require someone with a bit of technical knowhow to find the issue and resolve it.

 

Most modpacks today are either for minecraft 1.6.4 or 1.7.2. When the individual mods update, that doesn't mean the modpack author will update the modpack immediately. When the modpack author updates, the launchers allow all users to update automatically, or to select a specific version. It's even easier in the FTB launcher than selecting an older version of minecraft in the vanilla launcher. Server plugins used for vanilla minecraft will already have been existing for a while because of the latency between modded vs. vanilla update time, so there is not a lot of worry there in my mind. BUT I'm not a techadmin, have never hosted a modded server for lots of players, and should not be trusted as legal counsel or considered to have an expert opinion.

 

 Finally, it would require a special launcher to use, which I feel increases the barrier of entry even more since you'd need to switch launchers to switch between the servers.

 

It is true that it is most convenient to use ATlauncher, the FTB launcher, or MultiMC to play modded minecraft rather than the vanilla launcher. It's also true that these require mere moments to link to, download, and install, and in the case of ATLauncher and the FTB Launcher only a few moments more to select the desired modpack and have it loaded up to play - less time than it takes to install and download all the resources to play garry's mod by a mile. Instead of having a single minecraft icon, you would have vanilla minecraft, and next to that your other launcher. Or actually within the launcher itself, since I think most now have a vanilla "modpack" option.

 

I feel all of that adds up to being too much work to create and maintain, and would further alienate sections of our community from each other.

 

That's possible - it might indeed be more work than anyone at nerd is currently up for. I don't know what the social implications of having an FTB or other modded server would be for the nerd.nu community. I do think that the technical challenges may be overstated though, and would advocate for experimentation before dismissing it entirely.

 

All of that said, I don't think such a server should be a high priority at this time. I'd like to see a plugin-modded server before modpack-based one on nerd just because it's not so far outside our comfort zone.

 

edit: also, if i recall correctly a conversation that I had with deaygo a while back on this subject, bungee won't work with something like FTB. I'm not entirely clear on the details, nor up to date on all of the technical things relating to bungee, but the gist of what i got from that is that it would mean we would be missing some features that our vanilla-ish servers currently benefit from.

[Gizzletinks]

If we were to do a modpack, why not a custom modpack on the ATL launcher designed for nerd.nu, a simple, not too intensive, community designed modpack.

ATL is a launcher that allows servers to make their own modpack and host it on the launcher. http://www.atlauncher.com/ is the site

You can get a pack at http://www.atlauncher.com/getapack/

I have a lot of experience with modded game play and  would be willing to recommend and help test mods, I also noticed mumber does aswell since I see him on the ftb subreddit some.

 

A similar plugin environment can be acheived with bukkitforge, a hacked up bukkit compatability patch, that would allow use of nerd anti grief plugins.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Gizzletinks

[tobylane]

I've watched a few of the HermitCraft Modsauce episodes. Their pack, especially the quarry, seems overpowered. For the sake of long term interest and server performance I'd like to start with a mostly visual modpack. ExtraBiomeXL, Carpenters Blocks and Chisel alone would make a fantastic second creative server, though I think this one modded server should be PvE to get the numbers. 

[slide]

I would love a MiniGame server personally. Something to do when you are just kinda bored of your build or whatever.

[barneygale]

I think I dug out a couple of old CTF maps in 2012 from war.nerd.nu (~2011). I may still have them...

 

If we do minigames could we come up with an original concept?

 

Also, could we make sure we have maps with building allowed? I almost exclusively play defense on oc.tc and I like to think I'm pretty good at it. Maps without building are boring. We need a good balance of PVP skill (rushing, block spam, etc) and defense skill, which you can get reaaaaaaally in depth with if you like!

[joshuaherman]

I think we should do a FTB pack of some sort that would be popular.

[Mumberthrax]

A similar plugin environment can be acheived with bukkitforge, a hacked up bukkit compatability patch, that would allow use of nerd anti grief plugins.

 

iirc mcpc+ achieves a similar effect. I ran a direwolf20 server with prism / logblock, lwc, griefprevention, etc. on it off my laptop a while back using it. It's based on spigot.

[twilexis]

Replace S with minigames.

 

We need Madmins ;)

[EeHee2000]

I reckon a minigame server is the way to go, for example Four_Down's setup on his own network is pretty damn fun/successful. 

[tobylane]

I reckon a minigame server is the way to go, for example Four_Down's setup on his own network is pretty damn fun/successful. 

 

The biggest words on the first minigame page of his site are "Purchase [game] to build your own kits". If you add eula compliance like Nerd would want to, do you have an example of that?

 

edit: Yup, I was thinking of another server. Roast has said what I intended to find and quote.

Edited October 19, 2014 by tobylane

[roastnewt]

I'd rather not use PR as an example, but let me just correct this:
 

Purchase [game] to build your own kits

 

That doesn't exist anywhere on PR.  You must be thinking of a different server.

I believe Eehee is talking about the skywars server, where there are seven starting kits which start you off with items, so you're not completely dependent on the loot-chests in-game.  Some of them are purchasable, two of them are free.  If nerd wanted to do something like that, then they could just make all the kits free, or skip doing kits at all, and just have players rely on loot chests.