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barneygale

Phantom behaviour change

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Part 1: Why Phantoms are shite

If vanilla minecraft was perfect we wouldn't be running paperspigot and dozens of plugins. In my view an extension of the "vanilla with sprinkles" slogan is that we don't make gameplay modifications without good reason, but we do modify vanilla game play quite substantially when it makes sense. Portal restrictions, world size, creeper/enderman/villager/golem behaviour are all non-vanilla and all have a big impact on gameplay.

Mojang have a rich history of adding half-baked additions to the game but phantoms take the cake for me.

First: the combat is boring, substantially more boring than minecraft's janky combat vs skeletons, zombies, creepers. Every 10s seconds you get a change to time a melee or bow shot as a phantom dives. If you're lucky you can hit them with a bow while they're circling - maybe its just me, maybe its a product of playing a US server from the EU, but I find this very difficult - their movement is unpredictable and vaguely "laggy" that makes bow shots really hard.

Second: the "just sleep in a bed" argument - beds are already used for something useful (setting spawn point) and layering phantoms on top of that makes beds less useful. Play styles like my own hermit/vagabond lifestyle are much harder, because I'm constantly having to choose between phantoms and a sensible spawn point.

Given the combat is so boring, and that phantoms take away (rather than add) to the gameplay, I propose we "do something" about phantoms, maybe via a custom plugin.

Part 2: Some suggestions (mutually incompatible)

  • Phantoms only spawn if you're wearing elytra (my personal favourite)
  • Phantoms only spawn if you have sufficient armour points
  • Phantoms only spawn during thunderstorms
  • Phantoms only spawn after >~25 days awake
 
Thoughts/suggestions?
 
Cheers
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I actually agree with you in the fact that, "because it's vanilla", isn't a good excuse to not fix shitty Mojang janks. I've argued way too long that powered elytra are way too overpowered, but have always been countered with bullshit like "But it's vanilla", or "Just don't use it then".

In terms of phantoms, they are very anti-fun when you are building outdoors. You cannot decisively counter them all without being hit, killed, or knocked off your building, without 'sleeping' in a bed that may or may not be far away. If able, I think they need a soft nerf, maybe something you suggested, maybe something else, I don't know for sure.

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On 5/7/2019 at 4:14 PM, barneygale said:

Phantoms only spawn after >~25 days awake

This isn't a bad idea. Could probably even create a custom enchantment to extend the time and offer books as an event and/or admin hunt prize.

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I like the diamond armour idea because it's harsher on people who have conquered the game, so I wouldn't want an enchantment about it. Eg a person in ideal diamond armour/elytra has them every 3 days, basic enchants on diamond or a lot on iron has them every five days, down to leather armour or none has them every 10-15 days. They could be attracted to people who have an enderchest or enchanting table nearby (which has many false positives) or other non-armour measures of minecraft master.

 

I build open topped (aka unfinished) homes so they especially don't suit what I will always do.

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I think it would be unfortunate to nerf phantoms. Fighting them can be a lot of fun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb44IQssBOU

They can be a pain when building up high outdoors, but it only takes a little bit of preparation to avoid them. Build a temporary work station with some supplies and a bed. Just like you take the time to light an incomplete build to avoid being shot off by a skeleton, you need to take precautions against phantoms.

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Pez that video does look super fun but I haven't played with those items yet, nor have the majority of the server playerbase. For us scrubs who just want to get building asap it's a choice of sword or bow. And in that situation the combat is nowhere near as fun as it is against even skeletons or creepers. So maybe elytra should unlock once you have the tools to take them on in a fun way?

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15 hours ago, barneygale said:

Pez that video does look super fun but I haven't played with those items yet, nor have the majority of the server playerbase. For us scrubs who just want to get building asap it's a choice of sword or bow. And in that situation the combat is nowhere near as fun as it is against even skeletons or creepers. So maybe elytra should unlock once you have the tools to take them on in a fun way?

yup i'm nowhere near "fly around with a trident and elytra and hunt phantoms" phase, and I don't see how ANYONE would be with the significant lag experienced especially during peak times. 

Maybe take them away and bring them back for the second half of the rev when things die down and doing so is much less inconvenient.

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For what it's worth, the chunk load issues shouldn't affect a person's ability to fly up and hit the phantoms like that. A low tick rate would affect things by making it easier to hit them. Just lacking an elytra or I'd be able to fight them that way now.

Most of the changes from vanilla on P are to fix problems with multiplayer (locking chests, fire spread off, non flowing water, iron golem spawners, buffed mob drops, mob limiter) or can be outright ignored without affecting game play by players who don't like the changes (decorative saddles, collectible drops, mapworld, dopples, skull cavern). Removing or significantly changing phantoms in a way that changes the vanilla game feels like a different category of change. There may be something else that's similar to the proposed phantom change, but I can't think of it off the top of my head. Changing the phantoms as a non-ignorable and non-mulitplayer-fix type change I think raises the bar quite a lot rather than being a hard "never".

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My two cents: Perhaps if it were possible, could it be set so they only spawn on a certain moon phase if you haven't slept in a while? I'd be happy if they were turfed all together, but I can understand why people would like them kept to maintain the Vanilla aspect of the game.

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Honestly, phantoms are a vanilla aspect of the game in the same vein as zombies or skeletons or creepers. I dont think they need to change, people just need to learn to play with the new mechanic

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Well yeah, they are vanilla, but this server is rocky road. Let's eliminate horse training, custom mobs, safebuckets, moblimiter, and restore hoppers to their original glory while we're at it. 😏

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I don't see the vanilla argument as a rocky road when you take why each change is in place.

  • Horse training was implemented because people were not keeping their horse breeding stock low even when being told multiple times. I'm still on the fence for this one. Banning people after the first warning is the alternative. I'd be in favor of more vanilla horses as long as it didn't bring the breeding lag issues back.
  • Custom mobs (mostly) don't change game play. You could make an argument for this one in the nether/end, but it makes mobs like shulkers/wither skellies easier to get in multiplayer. In single player they are accessible because you have exclusive access (shulkers) or can control the spawning conditions to get more (wither skellies). There may be other ways to fix those issues without custom mobs.
  • Safe buckets is explicitly to combat grief.
  • Mob limiter is in place to deal with lag problems
  • Hopper speed limiting is in place to minimize lag.

If phantoms caused a significant issue on the server that they did not in single player I would personally be more open to changes.

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21 hours ago, pez252 said:

I don't see the vanilla argument as a rocky road when you take why each change is in place.

  • Horse training was implemented because people were not keeping their horse breeding stock low even when being told multiple times. I'm still on the fence for this one. Banning people after the first warning is the alternative. I'd be in favor of more vanilla horses as long as it didn't bring the breeding lag issues back.
  • Custom mobs (mostly) don't change game play. You could make an argument for this one in the nether/end, but it makes mobs like shulkers/wither skellies easier to get in multiplayer. In single player they are accessible because you have exclusive access (shulkers) or can control the spawning conditions to get more (wither skellies). There may be other ways to fix those issues without custom mobs.
  • Safe buckets is explicitly to combat grief.
  • Mob limiter is in place to deal with lag problems
  • Hopper speed limiting is in place to minimize lag.

If phantoms caused a significant issue on the server that they did not in single player I would personally be more open to changes.

When i said "rocky road", I meant the ice cream flavor, which I was contrasting to vanilla. I should have picked a flavor that didn't have a second, negative meaning. Let's go with Moose Tracks. :) I really don't object to these mods (with the exception of horse training, as it makes horse death quite devastating and a time suck) and I understand the reasons they were implemented. Although...I would happily live in a world where hopper speed limiting is not a necessity.

The only point I'm trying to make (and I should have used a few more words) is that we're at the point where new vanilla Minecraft features do not all add benefit to the PvE dynamic. I know no one wants to hear me rant about elytra, but I feel it's a great tool for survival or single-player, but not great at all for the PvE dynamic as there is less ground infrastructure created due to the ease of flying anywhere on the map with the help of a few dead creepers. The new villager rate limiting is fine if a few people are trading with the villagers, but isn't great in a high-traffic villager mart, like one you'd find on a PvE server. Locked villagers used to be a minor annoyance, but now you just have to wait it out. Mobs like phantoms really aren't very great when coupled with Minecraft's buggy combat system and the lag that we sometimes experience. Plus, once you have good armor they are just an annoyance that takes time away from playing with blocks. Heck, you can go to sleep every night and still get attacked by phantoms that someone else ran away from.

That's all I'm trying to say. If there's consensus that a vanilla feature isn't beneficial to PvE, then we shouldn't just keep it because it's vanilla. With that being said, it appears there is not a consensus that phantoms should be removed.

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On 8/13/2019 at 6:43 AM, DjentleGiant said:

Well yeah, they are vanilla, but this server is rocky road. Let's eliminate horse training, custom mobs, safebuckets, moblimiter, and restore hoppers to their original glory while we're at it. 😏

you joke, but that's what some people actually want(to varying degrees)

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