Beds and Survival

[Mrloud15]

Hello everyone, 

 

Cab417, Draykhar, and myself have been talking and the idea of bringing back beds to Survival came up. We have found a way to eliminate bed camping by forcing a player to spawn at spawn after being killed more then 3 times in 5 minutes. We would like to know what you guys think so please take the poll above and comment below with any concerns you have about adding beds to Survival.

 

This poll will close 2 weeks from now (Oct 16), so vote today!

[Synergetrick]

Oh hi.

 

Yes for beds.

[Mrgauthier34]

Imo I feel like this would further the difficulty to find players. I know I stay near spawn so I don't have to run 1000 blocks back to my base and with beds I feel like a lot more players will just go far out and it will become harder to find players to fight. I'm all about the PvP'ing and its hard enough to find players to fight and just don't want the challenge to rise if not needed. I think Survival is just fine with out beds. It adds more of a challenge to it.

[tobylane]

Having beds on S would encourage PVE players to live entirely in a corner of the world and never interact with the rest of the world. We must not allow those people to join the server for something that doesn't belong on S.

 

I would be one of them, with or without Lucky.

[TornadoHorse]

I'm not convinced. Could we have an option added to have a trial period? I reckon this would bring in a few more players who want to just sit away from all of the action, but we still want people to PvP. Then again, this would allow people to have the time to gather all the resources they need so they're able to PvP whenever they want!

 

Edit: I think it'd also depend on what size map we're having. I could see it working well with a small map.

Edited October 3, 2013 by TornadoHorse

[unce]

Enabling beds would spread the map out too much. It is hard enough to find pvp as it is.

[Mrloud15]

 Could we have an option added to have a trial period? 

 

Added.

[Ozomahtlii]

Having beds on S would encourage PVE players to live entirely in a corner of the world and never interact with the rest of the world. We must not allow those people to join the server for something that doesn't belong on S.

 

I don't think that's the right attitude for this as I believe anyone should be allowed to play on the servers if they stick to the rules.

I would see it as players from other server coming on survival, testing the waters but with a lower risc at start (by hiding further out the map), they will from time to time get killed or maybe try killing other people themselves, and might have fun from it, leading to more actively pvp'ing players.

Also right now any more players would probably be a plus for the server... (though that may be just my opinion)

 

I think having it on for a week or maybe two weeks would certainly be a good start, I'm certainly looking forward to it.

 

But having a smaller map may be a partial solution for the far out bases.

[tobylane]

I worded it that way to show up the preferential treatment of Survival. I'll do so again, in a different way.

 

For any PvP on P, for increased PvP on P and any PvP on C, it sounds like P and C admins asked permission from S admins for their servers to have PvP. It sounds like an ex-S admin was the one to say no to PvP on C. Following that reasoning, have you asked permission from the P admins for beds? Beds in the minecraft mode of survival are unique to P, therefore you must ask permission from the relevant admins, and they are allowed to turn you and your players down.

 

I'd appreciate it if some people would imagine they do accept the reasoning about asking permission, and answer from that point of view.

[Draykhar]

I worded it that way to show up the preferential treatment of Survival. I'll do so again, in a different way.

 

For any PvP on P, for increased PvP on P and any PvP on C, it sounds like P and C admins asked permission from S admins for their servers to have PvP. It sounds like an ex-S admin was the one to say no to PvP on C. Following that reasoning, have you asked permission from the P admins for beds? Beds in the minecraft mode of survival are unique to P, therefore you must ask permission from the relevant admins, and they are allowed to turn you and your players down.

 

I'd appreciate it if some people would imagine they do accept the reasoning about asking permission, and answer from that point of view.

 

What? Beds are a vanilla feature of minecraft (They're not copywrited to P) that S admins turned off prior to prevent bed-camping.

 

I'm not asking a Padmin for permission on this, and am honestly appalled that you even considered it.

[SpiderMan]

I worded it that way to show up the preferential treatment of Survival. I'll do so again, in a different way.

 

For any PvP on P, for increased PvP on P and any PvP on C, it sounds like P and C admins asked permission from S admins for their servers to have PvP. It sounds like an ex-S admin was the one to say no to PvP on C. Following that reasoning, have you asked permission from the P admins for beds? Beds in the minecraft mode of survival are unique to P, therefore you must ask permission from the relevant admins, and they are allowed to turn you and your players down.

 

I'd appreciate it if some people would imagine they do accept the reasoning about asking permission, and answer from that point of view.

 

Beds aren't unique to P.nerd.nu , they've been in the game since Beta 1.3 February 22, 2011 more than 2 years ago.

[roastnewt]

I worded it that way to show up the preferential treatment of Survival. I'll do so again, in a different way.

 

For any PvP on P, for increased PvP on P and any PvP on C, it sounds like P and C admins asked permission from S admins for their servers to have PvP. It sounds like an ex-S admin was the one to say no to PvP on C. Following that reasoning, have you asked permission from the P admins for beds? Beds in the minecraft mode of survival are unique to P, therefore you must ask permission from the relevant admins, and they are allowed to turn you and your players down.

 

I'd appreciate it if some people would imagine they do accept the reasoning about asking permission, and answer from that point of view.

 

 

Toby, the reason that they had a discussion about enabling PvP on the other servers is because people play survival FOR the pvp.  It's the main reason the server exists.  Do people play PvE for the beds?

[tobylane]

And PvP has been in the game a long time, but that doesn't stop it being limited. Draykar I want you to be appalled, and it doesn't have to be here, but I'd like to hear how this is different to PvP on P/C. Roast you have a point, but it's from a very narrow and 'popular' point of view. Yes, people play PvE for beds, and for opt-in PVP, and the community that cannot exist with constant PVP.

 

There are a few more options possible, which could be in a followup poll, but also has an impact now. Lucky with a bed reset means that you have to walk back to your base and sleep in the bed again to respawn at it. Lucky without a bed respawn means you can just die to any other player or method and spawn at your bed, even if your earlier killer is still there.

Edited October 3, 2013 by tobylane

[TheRandomnatrix]

If beds are going to be implemented I feel like we'd need to make a rule stating that players cannot break the beds of other players to reset their spawn(regardless of whether or not they replace the bed afterwards). Could also implement LWC on beds if that's a possibility to prevent that.

[tobylane]

If beds are going to be implemented I feel like we'd need to make a rule stating that players cannot break the beds of other players to reset their spawn(regardless of whether or not they replace the bed afterwards). Could also implement LWC on beds if that's a possibility to prevent that.

Could that be extended with: No contraption to kill someone at their bed, to modify their spawn position in relation to their bed, or block access between their bed and the outside world any more than the home/bed owner has done so themselves?

[snivell]

I'll do the trial.

Edited October 4, 2013 by snivell

[Synergetrick]

And PvP has been in the game a long time, but that doesn't stop it being limited. Draykar I want you to be appalled, and it doesn't have to be here, but I'd like to hear how this is different to PvP on P/C. Roast you have a point, but it's from a very narrow and 'popular' point of view. Yes, people play PvE for beds, and for opt-in PVP, and the community that cannot exist with constant PVP.

 

There are a few more options possible, which could be in a followup poll, but also has an impact now. Lucky with a bed reset means that you have to walk back to your base and sleep in the bed again to respawn at it. Lucky without a bed respawn means you can just die to any other player or method and spawn at your bed, even if your earlier killer is still there.

 

I'll field this question, as having been around for multiple years I feel I'm somewhat qualified.

 

PvP is a multi-faceted feature of the game. You can kill each other with swords, with bows, with or without armor, using traps, using potions, and with or without enchantments. To play with or without this on is a playstyle, not a toggled feature (for one, PvP can be disabled in Vanilla Minecraft, beds can't). People on PvE don't play "for beds". If beds were disabled on PvE these people aren't going to migrate to Creative. They play for the player-versus-environment playstyle. While I do play both PvE and Survival now, I don't play Survival because of the lack of beds, I play it because I get to kill people, and because there's the inherent risk of shanty_sniper destroying me at any moment.

 

Whether you think that particular facet is gamechanging or not, a lot of your fellow players appear to disagree:

[Guest Former Staff]

If such a plugin were brought in to allow people to respawn at their bed and upon the fourth death in 5 minutes, return alive at spawn then there is a question that comes to mind involving policy.

 

How would pvp logging be moderated?

 

-Would people be forced to sit through dying once and then being camped three times to avoid being reprimanded in some way for combat logging? (assuming that they are considered in a combat situation from their respawning at their bed)

[tobylane]

Syn: You made up a question I never asked, asked it on PvE and named me as the person asking it. Don't puppet people like that. I'm not sure why the features of the change matter, I was focusing on the permission bit. If we could separate them and discuss them each that would be allowing this topic to solve everything. 

 

Barlimore: Good thought. One major downside to requiring people stay logged in for three deaths just to stay unbanned is that some will think it's not worth it/demoralised and just leave. Despite that it seems the rules already cover this and dictate people can't log out until they are away from their enemy. Three chases ending in death from bed, while they are at worst naked and at best scrabbling to get their drops before their enemy does - how long does that take for people of various skill levels? Of course we could just reward the enemy entirely, they get it all. In which case I'd expect everyone to have beds far out, which again is not newb-friendly.

[Ozomahtlii]

-Would people be forced to sit through dying once and then being camped three times to avoid being reprimanded in some way for combat logging? (assuming that they are considered in a combat situation from their respawning at their bed)

Once player has been killed he has the respawn option or the disconnect server option on his screen, since he's been killed nolog doesn't count it as a log I believe so there wouldn't be a problem there

[Draykhar]

And PvP has been in the game a long time, but that doesn't stop it being limited. Draykar I want you to be appalled, and it doesn't have to be here, but I'd like to hear how this is different to PvP on P/C. Roast you have a point, but it's from a very narrow and 'popular' point of view. Yes, people play PvE for beds, and for opt-in PVP, and the community that cannot exist with constant PVP.

 

Wanting someone to be appalled is the most inefficient way of getting someone to agree with your way of thinking. And calling something both a narrow and a 'popular' point of view is contradictory. Care to clarify yourself?

 

Comparing beds on survival to PvP on C/P is a faulty analogy. Aside from the fact that they are both things on the server that are permitted on one server and not another, they have virtually nothing in common. PvP is a play style, not an in-game item that has its functionality disabled. Beyond that, The Padmins /have/ come to us Sadmins asking if arenas were okay on P. We permitted it without question - as it's something their player-base wanted. With any of the servers, if the player-base want something (such as the pvp-esque arenas on P, KoTH, beds) then admins ought work towards giving it to them when it is both feasible and not for the detriment of the servers. Isn't the function of an Admin to cater to their current and future player-base? Arenas on P aren't going to pull from S - they cater to the PvE player-base. So too would beds be catering to the players of S.

 

If such a plugin were brought in to allow people to respawn at their bed and upon the fourth death in 5 minutes, return alive at spawn then there is a question that comes to mind involving policy.

 

How would pvp logging be moderated?

 

-Would people be forced to sit through dying once and then being camped three times to avoid being reprimanded in some way for combat logging? (assuming that they are considered in a combat situation from their respawning at their bed)

 

Combat logging is honestly the one rule set I didn't consider in this. It eliminates spawn camping and the fringe instances of base camping. I don't have a straightforward thought or solution to the combat logging side of it - I'm sure plenty others in this thread can contribute there. My most immediate thought would be to change the amount of deaths and the timeset to a reduced amount, but that opens up the field to players waiting a minute between kills and just camping a base.

[CROCKODUCK]

I personally like this idea. I see some problems with this idea but honestly I mostly got bored of survival because I was soooo far out and when I would die from a skeleton, I would not want to walk all the way back out. It would also be very useful for making a grinder.

[Synergetrick]

Syn: You made up a question I never asked, asked it on PvE and named me as the person asking it. Don't puppet people like that. I'm not sure why the features of the change matter, I was focusing on the permission bit. If we could separate them and discuss them each that would be allowing this topic to solve everything. 

 

No I didn't. While you have the irritating habit of flapping around with words instead of just getting to the point, your question (or at least what has been inferred by myself and others) is that if beds are enabled on Survival (and people play on PvE for beds), why can't we enable PvP on Creative? While I answered your question directly in my reply (with a tl;dr of they're nowhere near the same thing, same as what Draykhar said), the reason I threw the question the way I did on the PvE server is because of this previous comment:

 

Having beds on S would encourage PVE players to live entirely in a corner of the world and never interact with the rest of the world. We must not allow those people to join the server for something that doesn't belong on S.

 

As for combat logging and bed-killing, there's various ways that can be resolved that I can see, although some of the approaches may not be acceptable:

• If a player is re-killed at his bed, modify the death message to note the particular player is spawncamping
  • This is more a social approach than any, however it may help clear up (and nullify) combat logging cases if the death messages are recorded as different and it's clear a player is spawncamping.
• Grant temporary (we're talking perhaps 2-3 seconds) invulnerability upon respawn
  • I believe Minecraft already does this by default, but not for quite this long. I was considering adding a command to teleport the player back to the actual spawn during this time, allowing them to get away.
• Make a player, upon respawning at their bed, invulnerable until they move (this includes moving the camera)
  • This has approximately the same impact as currently; players who have been killed can idle in spawn until their killers go away. So much as moving the camera would remove this invulnerability thereby preventing players from getting to nearby chests, but I could change it to be any x/y/z movement + interactions, instead of including pitch/yaw (camera) changes.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Synergetrick