Hard Mode on PvE

[Denevien]

This has been brought up in the past, and is being brought up again. Now, we have a fancy poll system to be able to keep track of results. Many have been in favor of this, for the fact that it would add a challenge to the "vs Environment" part of PvE. For those who do not know what hard mode will entail: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Difficulty

 

This poll will run until a week after launch (Oct 4, 2013). At that point we will take action on the results here.

[NatalieIsNot]

For those wanting a quick rundown on what switching to Hard Mode will entail:

 

• Monsters deal more damage. We're talking Endermen and Zombie Pigmen killing you in 2 hits with no armor, 4 in unenchanted diamond armor. Creepers don't need to be right next to you for their explosion to kill you.
• You will be able to starve.
• Zombies can break down wooden doors. Derp, Mob Griefing is off. No broken doors after all :p
• Spiders can spawn with potion effects. Invisible spiders, anyone?

I know, I know. That list is full of negative things. Why in the heck would we want all that?

 

Simple. PvE is too easy. Within a few weeks, mobs don't usually matter anymore. Unless we see a swarm of them, we're pretty much well defended against them. PvE might be a little more exciting with something to keep us on our toes.

 

Personal suggestion: I think the first week or so might be a bit tough. If it looks like it may be too much to get started, maybe we could start the revision on Normal, then move to Hard after three days.

[schererererer]

I concur with tristan's suggestion that we start with normal then move to hard afterward. With a large number of players on, it is conceivable that the growth rate of foodstuffs could decrease to the point where acquiring food in sufficient quantity would be the biggest challenge. Could this be added to the poll as an option, or even a combination of this with the current option of re-evaluating the difficulty level after a week?

[TheRandomnatrix]

As far as hard mode goes, there were also some ideas thrown around here:

 

https://nerd.nu/forum/index.php?/topic/395-raising-p-difficulty/?p=2824

 

Particularly in regards to making mobs stronger the further from spawn they are.

[Denevien]

Since the poll doesn't end until after the first week of the Rev, that takes early Rev out of the equation...

Regarding changing stats of mobs, techs say that it doesn't seem attributes ever got implemented. So, that would require another plugin to do, which means another thing to be updated, and I'd rather avoid that if possible.

[ne0codex]

I suggest this poll to be announced on this subreddit so we can get a larger voting sample.

 

I, for one, would vehemently oppose a hard mode on the PvE server because of death via hunger.

From my perspective, the player that will be the most affected by this will be the new player (either new to multi-server game play or new to p.nerd.nu). In both instances, it's pretty easy to get overwhelmed–there's the server-specific rules, exploring spawn, figuring out where you can build, figuring out major hotspots, finding portals, reading chat and trying to get a vibe from the community, etc etc. I know personally that the lack of death via hunger was quite helpful in the beginning so I could establish a small camp, learn about nearby builds and get acquainted with other players. 

 

This isn't going to affect the player who are well-aware of how P works, players who are well established, players who are easily able to mine large amounts of resources or players who are part of major cities where public resources are available to them–these players will feel non of the burden. Independent builders and less experienced players will be the ones to really feel a hard-mode on P. 

 

This hard-mode suggestion sounds better suited for S where the whole point is in survival. I consider P to be more of a community and/or building-based server so this quite honestly seems like it would be an unnecessary nuisance.

Edited September 26, 2013 by ne0codex

[Denevien]

Well, we always offer a small farm at spawn, and the UMC crew does a great job of making a much larger farm just outside spawn. There are always people willing to help the new players, we have that community cooperation that would actually make this successful. I think the need to rely on other people will help the community become even more close knit.

[Tolgar]

Personally, I'd rather have logged creeper explosions than a difficulty increase.  For a month afterward, the mobs on P on a new rev are still suffering from tick rate, so most are super easy to avoid.  At best we'd be getting starving to death and wood doors being destroyed.

[TheRandomnatrix]

At best we'd be getting starving to death and wood doors being destroyed.

 

Mob grief would be disabled in this case.

 

 

Regarding changing stats of mobs, techs say that it doesn't seem attributes ever got implemented. So, that would require another plugin to do, which means another thing to be updated, and I'd rather avoid that if possible.

 

Yeah I'm not sure what the situation is on the Attributes system, but potion effects are implemented as mob compatible already, as well as the possibility of giving mobs better gear. 

[knapptime18]

This is a tough one. I initially voted in favor of hard mode, but after reading some of the replies I changed my vote. I like the idea of making a more challenging and therefore more rewarding PvE experience. However, I can definitely see this deterring new players and with the current state of the server's population, I'd rather avoid that. I can remember first joining the server and having a really hard time surviving and getting established due to the fact that I was new and the idea of building in a big city intimidated me.

 

I guess what this really boils down to is deciding who do we want to cater to? Do we want to increase difficulty to make things more interesting for experienced players? Or do we make things easier for new players to help build the server's population?

[Difficult1]

I dont think the difficulty should be upped at all...PVE is supposed to be hard at first but get easyer as your game progresses. This is why you develop armor/tools/weapons. Why should it be hard all the time? Its player vs enviornment so really you should be able to overcome the challenges and live a happy life without death every 2 minutes. Also think about the rail tunnels...all those mobs stoping your ride, well this time they will ice you before you even leave the cart!

[NatalieIsNot]

I think a lot of people get bored with PvE. Sure, it is mostly about the community, but some people choose P because they don't like the idea of having to peer over their shoulders every ten seconds worrying about other players. Some like the sense of community along with the idea of a sense of challenge when exploring. Hard mode would add that sense of challenge. I personally like the idea of testing it out first.

 

Since the poll runs after the start, that would perfectly support the idea of testing it out for a week or two after the post ends, then turning it back down if people don't like it.

[Guest Former Staff]

I voted for a testing period first but please take my opinion with a pinch of salt as I have not been an active PvE player.

 

It is great to see this option being discussed, it would certainly add a different element to PvE and as seen in the discussion already, if the final decision turns out to be a no upon this front, there are other ways to making certain elements more difficult against the environment.

[Jalamookoofoo]

I just hate the idea of having to keep a bunch of potions on me to keep me safe, takes up inventory space. I see why some people would want it, but I'm voting honestly and purely out of self interest. I'm not good enough at minecraft combat to be interested in this, I already run away from 90% of mobs I see. Plus, as neo said, monsters suffer from a ton of lag in the first few weeks, so they're easy as shit to avoid.

[Synergetrick]

I just hate the idea of having to keep a bunch of potions on me to keep me safe, takes up inventory space. I see why some people would want it, but I'm voting honestly and purely out of self interest. I'm not good enough at minecraft combat to be interested in this, I already run away from 90% of mobs I see. Plus, as neo said, monsters suffer from a ton of lag in the first few weeks, so they're easy as shit to avoid.

 

After you get so much as unenchanted iron armor, any mob on normal becomes nothing more than an absolute joke. The two that aren't (Endermen, Zombie Pigmen) aren't hostile by default anyway.

 

I wrote a plugin a long while ago that could technically be used a compromise between the two; it applies various (configurable) potion effects to mobs when they target a player (default is, if I recall right, speed and strength). This means that players won't die from hunger, but mobs will still be difficult. Running away from these mobs will cause the potion effect to run out as normal so you can still fight them "the old way" if you so desired.

[DuckThatGoesMoo]

I agree that after one gets any sort of armor or weapon, normal monsters are nothing more than a nuisance. The only thing that concerns me is the death by hunger. Stronger monsters would be initially a pain, but it does add back another layer of gameplay (maintaining pots/armor/weapons to stay safe); the same can be said about having to carry food as well, so I voted to try it out for the first week. Basically I feel the change reinforces the "E" in PvE to add challenge: currently it's like player * in * environment, not really *versus*.  Now that I'm awake, I realize I agree with (and redundantly reiterated) the points made in the OP.

Edited September 27, 2013 by DuckThatGoesMoo

[teddylover]

I dont think the difficulty should be upped at all...PVE is supposed to be hard at first but get easyer as your game progresses. This is why you develop armor/tools/weapons. Why should it be hard all the time? Its player vs enviornment so really you should be able to overcome the challenges and live a happy life without death every 2 minutes. Also think about the rail tunnels...all those mobs stoping your ride, well this time they will ice you before you even leave the cart!

 

Rails are very important to get around if we dont wanna ride a horse, walk or take the nether. Difficult1 has made some excellent points. :)  x

[DuckThatGoesMoo]

Rails are very important to get around if we dont wanna ride a horse, walk or take the nether. Difficult1 has made some excellent points. :)  x

I second this.  It seems like this would be an undeniable flaw regardless of opinions of the other points.  I'm sure there are simple fixes, but it seems a lot of the issue with compromising is the effort it would take.  Plus, Nether travel would be that much more dangerous to boot.  

 

Perhaps an easier compromise would be to alter the frequency at which mobs spawn, so while they may be more difficult, they are also fewer.  I don't know if it is easily done, but to me it seems the simplest compromise.

[Denevien]

A mob on the rail causes issues with travel no matter the difficulty. I've always been for sealing of rail tunnels, even if only glass, to prevent issues like that.

[Sapphric]

I voted yes, but am open to the idea of a trial period before another vote.

[tobylane]

I think a lot of people get bored with PvE. Sure, it is mostly about the community, but some people choose P because they don't like the idea of having to peer over their shoulders every ten seconds worrying about other players. Some like the sense of community along with the idea of a sense of challenge when exploring. Hard mode would add that sense of challenge. I personally like the idea of testing it out first.

 

Since the poll runs after the start, that would perfectly support the idea of testing it out for a week or two after the post ends, then turning it back down if people don't like it.

Some people don't want to have to look over their shoulder for mobs either. For me, the Versus Environment means the challenge of controlling it, having the wild very separate from the city/home life, and easily accessible or farmable. Standard angry mobs are too easy, so we have wither and dopplegangers.

 

The main reason why I'd be OK with hard after a week is Rei's death markers. That means my reasoning is somewhat invalid, as new players are much less likely to have Reis. Therefore no.

[Cyotie911]

Heh, I logged onto PvE for the first time in a few revs the other day and I was actually thinking for some reason that PvE was in hard mode already. Not because of the strength of the enemies, but just due to the fact of having played on Survival more frequently. Having already had that in my head I found the worst flaw with making Survival "hard" mode and its not the enemies. If you die, a fee hundred blocks fron your house on PvE because of a monster, big deal, you're going to respawn back at your house because, unlike survival, you have "bed" set spawn points. The issue is HUNGER! By enabling "hard" on PvE you will actually make PvE harder than survival! Why you may ask? You might think, "yeah, but bread is so easy to make." which is true. Until you realize that, while trying to traverse the map, every farm you are going to run across is now protected and you end up dying of hunger while trying to find something to eat.

tldr, Hard is fine if you are already established but will make the game 10X more difficult for the new people who would like to explore the map becore deciding where to live.

[Hustletron]

I really like the idea of hardness increasing as you get farther away from spawn, that way you feel like you are taming some new frontier. I feel that with a couple of well placed high rise farms, we could negate the hunger effects in some places. Perhaps they'd could be placed near the ends of the cardinal roads, which newbs often follow. Offering steady food supply would be an incentive for people to join your town too. Ample amounts of glowstone this rev makes artificial lighting for mass production plant based food setups a reality as well.

[TheRandomnatrix]

The issue is HUNGER! By enabling "hard" on PvE you will actually make PvE harder than survival! Why you may ask? You might think, "yeah, but bread is so easy to make." which is true. Until you realize that, while trying to traverse the map, every farm you are going to run across is now protected and you end up dying of hunger while trying to find something to eat.

 

I feel like between free melons at spawn and UMC's effort to make large public farms surrounding spawn will negate the issue that new players will starve. There are also plenty of people on PvE who enjoy helping new players get started on the server.

[ne0codex]

> I feel like between free melons at spawn and UMC's effort to make large public farms surrounding spawn will negate the issue that new players will starve.

 

New players won't be staying at spawn for long, when they venture out and explore either they join a city and thusly gain access to public resources or 2: deal with worldguard keeping everything nearby off-limits. Depending on how far they have to go to find a suitable place to build, NOT dying from hunger would be a plus.

 

 

> There are also plenty of people on PvE who enjoy helping new players get started on the server.

That's irrelevant. People can either ignore new players asking questions on chat or they can get bombarded with Join X Y or Z city. I would rather then player be able to independently explore the environment, builds and community within a game setting where they don't have to worry about hunger-death because they can't grow food fast enough.

 

Like I said before, solely for the fact that people CAN die from hunger I am opposed to this.