Survival A possible solution to the SafeBuckets problem?

[Elephant Parade]

(The other thread's first post said that it should be closed, which is why I didn't post it there.)

 

People have brought up a lot of good points about why Safebuckets should be gotten rid of or kept. People tend to use buckets to grief, which results in a lot of work for the admins. However, being required to make /modreqs to flow water is annoying, and takees up the admins' time.

 

What if trusted users didn't suffer from SafeBuckets?

 

What if users who had played on the server for [X] hours (or done something notable) didn't get affected by SafeBuckets? I have no idea how it would be done (or if it's even possible) but I think it would save the admins a lot of time. Most griefers probably aren't dedicated enough to play for a long time, and this could be combined with the waterproofing plugin somebody suggested earlier. I think that this would probably cut staff workload quite a bit.

If this has been suggested before, my apologies. I have not heard this solution, and I think it might solve the problem nicely. Thank you for your time.

 

Clarification: the "trusted user" status would be invisible, and confer no other benefits.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Denevien

[SwitchViewz]

This is a great idea on paper but would be difficult to implement. Firstly, you define trusted users based off a set number of hours? Just because someone plays a long time doesn't mean they can be trusted. A prime example of this is when people that were trusted enough with moderator powers abused them. Secondly, how would you actually make a user "trusted" in game? You would have to add a separate permission group just for trusted members and then add every trusted person one by one as they gain status. This would be a hassle for tech admins/server admins. I am not sure how safebuckets works entirely but from what I know is that SafeBuckets blocks any sort of flow from all buckets. You have to have a actual water source block in your hand to flow it (I'm not a mod so I'm not sure if this is how it works, so please correct me if I am wrong). How would these "Trusted Users" get the actual flow block to place flowing water?

 

In short my opinion on this is you want to add a bunch of "trusted" users to place water when that basically what moderators are. They are trusted users that have been given the power to flow water and help out with other tasks.

Edited February 1, 2014 by SwitchViewz

[Elephant Parade]

Well, I don't know if it's possible, but I would expect that users would be automatically added to a list upon attaining [X] hours of play.

 

I can see your point about long-timers abusing their powers, but I think that would happen rarely enough for this setup to be worth it.

 

As for the bucket issue, maybe the trusted users would simply obtain a water tile when right-clicking water with a bucket?

[TheRandomnatrix]

I'm against the idea of "trusted users" as it brings in a rank system, which is something we try to avoid here.

[barneygale]

yeah idk about this. it would work but we'd no longer be able to claim we're unranked.

[coolgamerovr90]

After thinking about this for awhile, It does seem like a pretty good idea, and we could still be unranked if we only did this to safebuckets

[Magnyus]

Having trusted users is a topic I used to ask a few admins about a while ago and it almost always came down to the "we don't use a rank system". Which is fine, whatever.

But, adding a 'trusted' user group would help in identifying players a lot easier. Specifically when dealing with things across all servers. My idea is something along the lines of some sort of tag, like an icon or symbol attached to a player's identity. The purpose being for newer players to know who to talk to if they need help (by asking players who've been around longer) or for older players to know who not to trust (since they might not be aware of the rules). This would also be useful when anything involving all the servers comes up for example, the mod vote, I always hear people complain about who half of the nominees are because they've never even heard of them. if it were easy to identify that [X] nominee has been around since [blank] date players would be more inclined to give said nominee the benefit of the doubt.

For moderators, I would assume that easily being able to identify players would make bans, kicks, mutes, etc. a lot faster. Another example, player [A] has a small history of spamming and verbal abuse (a note added by another mod in the past), moderator can quickly mute him the next time they do, since it was already noted that they were aware of the rule. Another thing that could be implemented (although I have a feeling a few won't like it) is to ban players according to how long they've been playing. Like if an older player had for some reason or another, decided to grief (or break some other rule), it should be obvious to any mod or admin that that player is well aware of the rules and knows what they're getting themselves into, set a longer ban length. As opposed to a newer player who breaks a rule and has little to no idea of what the rules are (you can't make them read them, it happens anyways) gets a much shorter ban length since, of course adopting something like a three-strike policy against them would 'motivate' them to familiarise themselves with the rules.

I don't think of this as a rank system, because it's not changing permissions or giving any said person priority, it's just a matter of adding a visual representation of a player's identity. The goal being to identify which players have been around longer and what they've done.

I'm also constantly looking for ways to help us stand out apart from other servers and being open to adding radical changes, even ones that are really minor, works in our favour, because it will generate interest, especially when it comes to advertising. Another thing, is that most servers adopt a rank system as an attempt to make money through payment, or as an incentive to continue playing on their server. Nerd doesn't have an incentive to stick around like that other than what appears to be the role of a moderator, which has been expressed in the past as not being a promotion. Which many players see it as anyways. Something as simple as being easily identified to other players would be enough of an incentive for someone to stay, without being 'better' than those who aren't.

Feel free to discuss.

[SwitchViewz]

After thinking about this for awhile, It does seem like a pretty good idea, and we could still be unranked if we only did this to safebuckets

How would we still be "unranked?" Adding a trusted user lever would be adding a "rank".

[Elephant Parade]

Hmm. I can see the issue with ranks. However, one rank that doesn't do too much and can be obtained through playing for a bit isn't really the kind of system people generally have problems with.

[schererererer]

Having trusted users is a topic I used to ask a few admins about a while ago and it almost always came down to the "we don't use a rank system". Which is fine, whatever.

But, adding a 'trusted' user group would help in identifying players a lot easier. Specifically when dealing with things across all servers. My idea is something along the lines of some sort of tag, like an icon or symbol attached to a player's identity. The purpose being for newer players to know who to talk to if they need help (by asking players who've been around longer) or for older players to know who not to trust (since they might not be aware of the rules). This would also be useful when anything involving all the servers comes up for example, the mod vote, I always hear people complain about who half of the nominees are because they've never even heard of them. if it were easy to identify that [X] nominee has been around since [blank] date players would be more inclined to give said nominee the benefit of the doubt.

For moderators, I would assume that easily being able to identify players would make bans, kicks, mutes, etc. a lot faster. Another example, player [A] has a small history of spamming and verbal abuse (a note added by another mod in the past), moderator can quickly mute him the next time they do, since it was already noted that they were aware of the rule. Another thing that could be implemented (although I have a feeling a few won't like it) is to ban players according to how long they've been playing. Like if an older player had for some reason or another, decided to grief (or break some other rule), it should be obvious to any mod or admin that that player is well aware of the rules and knows what they're getting themselves into, set a longer ban length. As opposed to a newer player who breaks a rule and has little to no idea of what the rules are (you can't make them read them, it happens anyways) gets a much shorter ban length since, of course adopting something like a three-strike policy against them would 'motivate' them to familiarise themselves with the rules.

I don't think of this as a rank system, because it's not changing permissions or giving any said person priority, it's just a matter of adding a visual representation of a player's identity. The goal being to identify which players have been around longer and what they've done.

I'm also constantly looking for ways to help us stand out apart from other servers and being open to adding radical changes, even ones that are really minor, works in our favour, because it will generate interest, especially when it comes to advertising. Another thing, is that most servers adopt a rank system as an attempt to make money through payment, or as an incentive to continue playing on their server. Nerd doesn't have an incentive to stick around like that other than what appears to be the role of a moderator, which has been expressed in the past as not being a promotion. Which many players see it as anyways. Something as simple as being easily identified to other players would be enough of an incentive for someone to stay, without being 'better' than those who aren't.

Feel free to discuss.

The only system of trust I want is the reputation attached to ones' name. A major reason I stuck with nerd.nu when I started was that I, as a brand new player, wasn't viewed by others as worthy of any more suspicion or implicitly less worthy of joining in a project.

 

Server activity is pretty well encapsulated in stats; newbie questions are almost always answered (and get asked) promptly in public chat; we already have a system of notes; we do sometimes have extended ban lengths for people who "should know better". "Visual representation of a player's identity" brings to mind every color of the rainbow used to tag players at various levels of trust. You say you're looking for ways for us to stand apart from other servers, yet our current system rejecting ranks or trusted groups is a great thing that sets us apart from many, many others. The only "incentive" we should have for playing on these servers is the joy of playing with friends. Becoming a moderator or an admin should not be an incentive - mods have no legitimate advantages in gameplay over that of everyone in general, only duties and the tools necessary to fulfill those duties.

[Elephant Parade]

What if you could just /modreq permission? A moderator would check your playtime/infringements, and you would be granted permission if everything looked fine. It wouldn't even be visible to other players.

[SwitchViewz]

What if you could just /modreq permission? A moderator would check your playtime/infringements, and you would be granted permission if everything looked fine. It wouldn't even be visible to other players.

Other players can view the modreqs made on PvE and Creative.

 

And Schererererer said exactly what I was thinking beautifully.

[redwall_hp]

You say you're looking for ways for us to stand apart from other servers, yet our current system rejecting ranks or trusted groups is a great thing that sets us apart from many, many others. The only "incentive" we should have for playing on these servers is the joy of playing with friends. Becoming a moderator or an admin should not be an incentive - mods have no legitimate advantages in gameplay over that of everyone in general, only duties and the tools necessary to fulfill those duties.

 

This x10. The egalitarian nature of Nerd is a major part of the network's identity, and one thing I miss terribly when playing games (of any kind) on others' servers. No donor perks, no ranks.

[Magnyus]

1. The only system of trust I want is the reputation attached to ones' name. A major reason I stuck with nerd.nu when I started was that I, as a brand new player, wasn't viewed by others as worthy of any more suspicion or implicitly less worthy of joining in a project.

 

2. Server activity is pretty well encapsulated in stats; newbie questions are almost always answered (and get asked) promptly in public chat; we already have a system of notes; we do sometimes have extended ban lengths for people who "should know better".

3. "Visual representation of a player's identity" brings to mind every color of the rainbow used to tag players at various levels of trust.

4. You say you're looking for ways for us to stand apart from other servers, yet our current system rejecting ranks or trusted groups is a great thing that sets us apart from many, many others. The only "incentive" we should have for playing on these servers is the joy of playing with friends. Becoming a moderator or an admin should not be an incentive - mods have no legitimate advantages in gameplay over that of everyone in general, only duties and the tools necessary to fulfill those duties.

First off I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of what I'm suggesting, you make it seem like I want to organise players according to their levels of trust, (something that isn't even possible to do) Wrong.

What I'm asking for uses all the methods that are currently available outside of Minecraft. Things like the usage stats, MCBouncer, and even wiki profiles, I want those things to be readily available in-game.

1. Agreed, that is how we operate, but you must be very naive to think you weren't worthy of suspicion when you were new. New players always have a stigma surrounding them, atleast on C there have been far too many incidents of a player joining for the first time, requesting a TP, and going to town destroying stuff when it's granted. But that's never stopped me from letting them participate in any projects or such, if they actually chat with me and show me that they're up for the work, then of course I'd trust them, I've made plenty of friends through that.

2. Again, I want those stats available in-game. And notes don't appear to be used as much as bans are (what ever happened to warning people?). Also the ban lengths no longer apply to the one being banned but the banning moderator.

3. I feel as though you're putting me in a negative light here. I want to tag players using information that is already visible to anyone who is looking for it. If they have a bad record that is their fault, if they don't then clearly at a glance they must be more reliable.

4. I don't even think you read my post, when did I say that the moderator position was an incentive? Quite the opposite, I said that it is not a promotion, I also stated that a lot of the newer players definitely see it as that (since that is what it is on every other server ever). My idea is to make us stand out by simply making it easy for everyone to know who you are. And yes, the server's current incentive is to play with friends, but in my personal experience, staying here has felt worthwhile when I log into the server after taking a two month break and people scream my name the moment I log in. In other words, being easily identified due to the reputation attached to my name.

[EeHee2000]

I very much like the informal reputation system that we currently have. Ranked groups (Elite, Lord, King, etc) take away from the sense that we make ourselves whom we want to be. No-one will argue with an xxxLORDxKINGxxx ranked player simply because they have a colored name. I always hated that about other servers. A nine year old kid could practically control a server simply because he pulled $200 out of his father's wallet. On nerd, we all start equal. If we want to aim higher than that, we work for it. We negotiate with one-another, decide which friendships to make, what to build, whom to kill on Survival, how involved we are in the community's various branches such as IRC. Reputation is locally recognised, rather than clogging up chat with needless titles. Players need to participate in chat to be able to create friendships and in turn be known amongst players.

Sincerely,

[GOD][KING][LORD]XXX-PRO-REAPERSLAYER-EEHEE2000-XXX.

Edited February 2, 2014 by EeHee2000

[Elephant Parade]

I very much like the informal reputation system that we currently have. Ranked groups (Elite, Lord, King, etc) take away from the sense that we make ourselves whom we want to be. No-one will argue with an xxxLORDxKINGxxx ranked player simply because they have a colored name. I always hated that about other servers. A nine year old kid could practically control a server simply because he pulled $200 out of his father's wallet. On nerd, we all start equal. If we want to aim higher than that, we work for it. We negotiate with one-another, decide which friendships to make, what to build, whom to kill on Survival, how involved we are in the community's various branches such as IRC. Reputation is locally recognised, rather than clogging up chat with needless titles. Players need to participate in chat to be able to create friendships and in turn be known amongst players.

Sincerely,

[GOD][KING][LORD]XXX-PRO-REAPERSLAYER-EEHEE2000-XXX.

That wasn't my idea. [GODKINGDEMONANGELWIZARD]-type ranks are the last thing I would like to see. I simply think that an invisible rank that allows water placement would save a lot of time and effort.

[WayneByNumbers]

That wasn't my idea. [GODKINGDEMONANGELWIZARD]-type ranks are the last thing I would like to see. I simply think that an invisible rank that allows water placement would save a lot of time and effort.

 

As much as I believe you when you say that you don't want to introduce status ranks to the servers, I just don't see any way to go about allowing water placement to some players, but not others, without doing that.  No matter how discretely implemented, the basic facts of the situation would be that some players have abilities others don't (and there would be no way to keep that invisible for long anyways).  If it's granted by a threshold of playtime, then we are indeed offering a quantifiable and potentially exploited reward of some kind; if it's granted by unofficial reputation, we invite accusations (and the possibility itself) of the "popularity contest."  The idea that staff has powers that other players don't is risky enough, and I think only survives by basic necessity.  It's hard enough to keep staff positions from becoming, or seeming to become, ranks.  Adding further distinctions that separate players from one another is not something that I feel would be consistent with these servers' overall goals.

 

But hashing out this suggestion is only one part of this discussion.  The real aim here should be, what do we do with SafeBuckets?  Myself, I find the idea of a water-damage-blocking plugin or plugin addition attractive.  In fact, starting here in a previous discussion, such a fix was considered that seemed attractive to all involved, including the SAdmins.  A more objective way of adjusting the pros and cons of liquid use is probably better than trying to adjust the players.

 

Everyone seems to have agreed that any such changes should wait for a new rev before being implemented, so obviously nothing can be done immediately.  It would be nice, however, if a SAdmin or Tech could pop in and just let us know if any progress or decisions have been made concerning this?

[Elephant Parade]

When I thought of this idea, I didn't realize the sort of problems it could cause. While I believe it is still better than the current situation, a waterproof-redstone plugin might be a better idea. Perhaps a mod alert when a relatively new player places a large amount of liquids?

[EeHee2000]

The only system of trust I want is the reputation attached to ones' name. A major reason I stuck with nerd.nu when I started was that I, as a brand new player, wasn't viewed by others as worthy of any more suspicion or implicitly less worthy of joining in a project.

 

Server activity is pretty well encapsulated in stats; newbie questions are almost always answered (and get asked) promptly in public chat; we already have a system of notes; we do sometimes have extended ban lengths for people who "should know better". "Visual representation of a player's identity" brings to mind every color of the rainbow used to tag players at various levels of trust. You say you're looking for ways for us to stand apart from other servers, yet our current system rejecting ranks or trusted groups is a great thing that sets us apart from many, many others. The only "incentive" we should have for playing on these servers is the joy of playing with friends. Becoming a moderator or an admin should not be an incentive - mods have no legitimate advantages in gameplay over that of everyone in general, only duties and the tools necessary to fulfill those duties.

This is essentially an exact repeat of what Magnyus said, I'm not sure how you got 7 upvotes for saying it again.

 

That aside, I've got a question. Would these so-called trusted user groups be attached to a name in chat for all to see?

If so, I'd much rather it be a lookup system, perhaps /serverstat (user).

There could be an entire subforum for it, or maybe just a small website listing all the names. 

The only negative I see to this is how we'd go about adding every user's date-of-join, ban count, etc. Unless we have a bot to do that, It'd be a slow and tolling process.

[schererererer]

This is essentially an exact repeat of what Magnyus said, I'm not sure how you got 7 upvotes for saying it again.

They're rebuttals for each of Magnyus' rationales for having an in-game tag that marks a person's "level of trust". My point is the opposite of Magnyus'; that these ingame assessments are neither necessary nor beneficial - that reputation should be upon name recognition only (or by personally looking up raw *continuous* stats, rather than discrete rankings).

 

2. Again, I want those stats available in-game. And notes don't appear to be used as much as bans are (what ever happened to warning people?). Also the ban lengths no longer apply to the one being banned but the banning moderator.

3. I feel as though you're putting me in a negative light here. I want to tag players using information that is already visible to anyone who is looking for it. If they have a bad record that is their fault, if they don't then clearly at a glance they must be more reliable.

4. I don't even think you read my post, when did I say that the moderator position was an incentive? Quite the opposite, I said that it is not a promotion, I also stated that a lot of the newer players definitely see it as that (since that is what it is on every other server ever). My idea is to make us stand out by simply making it easy for everyone to know who you are. And yes, the server's current incentive is to play with friends, but in my personal experience, staying here has felt worthwhile when I log into the server after taking a two month break and people scream my name the moment I log in. In other words, being easily identified due to the reputation attached to my name.

2. A tag is implicitly discrete, distilling all those stats from usage, mcbouncer, etc into a single value - practically the definition of a rank or level. If you want to make all the actual information visible to anyone who wants to see it (via a command, basically an expanded /lookup), that's another story (hooking publically available data is fine and dandy and I'd be fine with usage data, but I don't think that many people are looking for this functionality ingame, especially considering how wiki text would flood one's screen, how easy and more functional it is to look up usage data on nerd.nu, and how bans and notes are really a semi-public element (for example we removed ingame public notification of bans because of all the disturbances it caused in public chat)).

 

Notes are still used fairly often, but they are a pretty narrow area of usage - when someone does something that falls short of a ban but beyond a mere verbal warning that we also want to keep track of (or misc notes)- typically things like repeated or moderate crop grief, pvp logging, or repeated disruptions in public chat. No idea what you're talking about when you say the ban lengths no longer apply to the banned...

 

3. Again, unless you want to make this less of a tag and more of a lookup, this would have to be a distillation of [200 hours played and 2 negative notes] into [Trust Level X], which I fail to see as distinguishable from ranks. If you want a lookup, don't use the words "group", "tag", "icon", or "symbol".

 

4. 

Nerd doesn't have an incentive to stick around like that other than what appears to be the role of a moderator, which has been expressed in the past as not being a promotion. Which many players see it as anyways. Something as simple as being easily identified to other players would be enough of an incentive for someone to stay, without being 'better' than those who aren't.

The overarching subtext in the phrases "what appears to be the role of a moderator" and "Which many players see it as anyways", which are barely qualified by "has been expressed in the past as not being a promotion", is the implication that mod status is a promotion but denied to be so. If this was not your intention, more clarity would have been nice - something like "Nerd doesn't have an incentive to stick around (though some see mod status as such)."

 

Back to the point, putting a tag on your name defeats the purpose of reputation attached to your name - think "Magnyus" vs "[wowsotrust]Magnyus" (or take your pick of anything more discreet). You remove all the subtleties of the raw elements of how many hours you've played / how many blocks you've mined / what's your k/d ratio / what contests have you won, etc. and turn all those features of your history on the server into a rank. You can't fairly balance them because there's no right way to do so, and you can't have tags or groups in this manner without defined strata, which is anathema to the core of our server philosophy.

[c45y]

Perhaps I'm a bit slow on the uptake, I thought an alternative plugin was already written, has been vetted for code quality and functionality and requires no form of ranking system ( which we already have in the form of mods and admins, open your eyes fools )

 

Maybe I'm missing the point and this is all a subtle push for a ranking system? I dunno, the issue about water seems to already be resolved...

[SwitchViewz]

Perhaps I'm a bit slow on the uptake, I thought an alternative plugin was already written, has been vetted for code quality and functionality and requires no form of ranking system ( which we already have in the form of mods and admins, open your eyes fools )

 

Maybe I'm missing the point and this is all a subtle push for a ranking system? I dunno, the issue about water seems to already be resolved...

Which plugin are you referring to? SafeBuckets or something else?

[c45y]

I was talking about Cork

 

As an alternative there is also WaterProofBlocks

 

Did you not read the big long winded thread that just recently happened?

 

This exact issue was discussed and it was opted that testing happen and Cork be considered as a replacement next survival revision.

[SwitchViewz]

I did read that topic. I merely asked which one you were talking about since several have been mentioned. That topic was also about S and not P. Not that it isn't a viable solution I'm just saying that no padmin commented on that.

[c45y]

Sorry, I was unaware this was a P discussion. Removal of individual server groups in the forums was a brilliant idea whoever did that!

 

As far as P goes, I still believe the outcome from the thread about this problem on S is also the best solution. I actually believe adoption and incidents of griefing would be less on P, and a lot more manageable than Survival, if anything this plugin should be on P without a doubt.