Grief bait

[Trooprm32]

As this came up in mumble, and is something I have been thing thinking about while playing on S, what is grief bait, and what isn't?

 

I would like to see a list/compilation of block types which are considered as so, so it can be easier for players to identify grief bait whether placing or destroying, and for moderators; when attempting to fulfill modreq's pertaining to such grief.

 

I have intentionally not started the list to see what other people think.

[roastnewt]

My understanding is that there are two types of grief-bait.

 

One is like a honeypot for griefers, where you place diamonds on the road or something.  In that case, staff will still warn or ban the griefer, but not roll-back the griefbait.

 

The other type is when you use items like silk-touched ores as a doorway, or to line your walls, and are relying on the fact that people will think twice about breaking in to kill you, since it's a pain in the ass to replace.  For this type of grief bait, the "griefer" doesn't have to replace or get in trouble, and the builder themselves might get in trouble for having it.

 

For the first type, I would say Diamond Blocks, Iron Blocks, and silk-touched Diamond/Lapis Ores.

 

For the second type (making piston-doors out of it), I would expand the previous list to include to any sort of silk-touched ores and bookcases. In addition, it's been ruled that lava above a doorway fits this category, since breaking down an iron door causes the lava to flow and burn the door-item, forcing the attacker to waste 6 iron ingots to make a new door.

[zifnab06]

Another type:

 

You're chasing me, about to kill me. I surround myself in glass. You break said glass and kill me. I can't say you griefed my glass building. 

Edited August 23, 2013 by zifnab06

[xXNjordXx]

And another type

 

You build a trap that doesnt kill the victim so he has to grief to get out .

In this case the victim (trapped one) wont be punished.

[Weazol]

The block in question on mumble was bookshelves.

 

Are bookshelves considered grief bait because if anyone destroys them they have to get wood to make another and replace it. Or is it not considered grief bait because it is easy to do that.

[Four_Down]

The block in question on mumble was bookshelves.

 

Are bookshelves considered grief bait because if anyone destroys them they have to get wood to make another and replace it. Or is it not considered grief bait because it is easy to do that.

I've always been told it's grief bait.

[cab417]

The block in question on mumble was bookshelves.

 

Are bookshelves considered grief bait because if anyone destroys them they have to get wood to make another and replace it. Or is it not considered grief bait because it is easy to do that.

 

I've always been told it's grief bait.

 

I feel that the reason that bookshelves are on the "grief bait" list, was due to the fact that they used to need leather. Now that all it takes to replace them is sugar cane (Easy to find and harvest), and wood (Everywhere) it might be possible to remove them from this list. I still would count these as grief bait until an admin were to change their status.

[unce]

The block in question on mumble was bookshelves.

 

Are bookshelves considered grief bait because if anyone destroys them they have to get wood to make another and replace it. Or is it not considered grief bait because it is easy to do that.

 

Like glass and smoothstone, the materials for bookshelves are easy to obtain. I would not consider them griefbait. 

[EeHee2000]

I mainly consider it to be luring a player into a situation where they

A) Have to grief to live/escape etc.

or

B) Unknowingly grief a build due to a baiter claiming the build to be their own, and asking for assistance to remove it.

I know that probably isn't really the pinpointed answer you were looking forward to, so I'll chuck in a couple of less-general ones that haven't been mentioned.

-This may not be understandable, but I'll try my best. If a player were to be fleeing from another player onto unclaimed land, they could quickly create a 3x3 claim and tower up into the sky to escape. Of course, bows solve these issues.

[Blagob]

I'm not quite sure how open these items are to discussion, but I'd like to throw in my two cents.

I agree that bookshelves should be removed, due to the fact that the recipe on these servers is modified. The block in question for me is silk touched lapis. I can understand why diamond blocks or iron blocks are illegal, as well as diamond ore, but lapis ore is kind of odd to me. If it is out of sight from greifers, then its not really greifbait is it? The whole point of defending your vault or building with a bookshelf or lapis ore is as an inconvenience to the attacker. I find it odd that they are not usable as defenses because it makes the attacker take extra time to replace...

Same with the whole iron door/lava situation. The point is to discourage the attacker from breaking in, due to the fact that it will probably cost him 6 iron/iron door to kill you. Why would you ban this kind of defense on the idea that its costly to attack?

[Mrloud15]

Hello everyone, I have added a poll about what should be considered as grief bait.

 

Please let me know if I missed something you think should be in the poll.

 

Edit: Just to clarify,  Block of Ore are these and Ores are these.

[Trooprm32]

Just so you know, the poll needs a "none of the above" option on each of them, because to complete the poll, it forces you to chose one of them.

[ROCKONN]

To be perfectly honest, I'm clearly missing something in relation to the topic. How exactly can a singular block be counted as grief bait, in any context? Sure, perhaps an old style bookcase, by itself, marking the edge of a boundry, or a chest full of diamonds, just sitting by itself in the middle of nowhere could be counted as bait, but how often would one see a situation like that, in which blocks of varying/high value in such a way?

I've been under the impression that "grief bait" could only be counted towards STRUCTURES or defined features, and that context is needed in each/every case of "bait". Is this correct, or is there more?

 

Ore blocks, especially, should not be counted as grief bait when integrated into the structure of one's home. They seem to be used as a loophole to get assailants into trouble

[Mrloud15]

Just so you know, the poll needs a "none of the above" option on each of them, because to complete the poll, it forces you to chose one of them.

Fixed, thanks for letting me know.

[Trooprm32]

To be perfectly honest, I'm clearly missing something in relation to the topic. How exactly can a singular block be counted as grief bait, in any context? Sure, perhaps an old style bookcase, by itself, marking the edge of a boundry, or a chest full of diamonds, just sitting by itself in the middle of nowhere could be counted as bait, but how often would one see a situation like that, in which blocks of varying/high value in such a way?

I've been under the impression that "grief bait" could only be counted towards STRUCTURES or defined features, and that context is needed in each/every case of "bait". Is this correct, or is there more?

 

Ore blocks, especially, should not be counted as grief bait when integrated into the structure of one's home. They seem to be used as a loophole to get assailants into trouble

 

This relating to S, grief bait is defined as what people use as part of their door systems. Placing a grief bait block in the door that people cannot replace is what I consider to be; grief bait. You cannot replace these blocks unless you specifically have a ST pick on you. Now some people may classify some blocks as grief bait, where other people may have different opinions on the topic; hence, the pole.

[ROCKONN]

This relating to S, grief bait is defined as what people use as part of their door systems. Placing a grief bait block in the door that people cannot replace is what I consider to be; grief bait. You cannot replace these blocks unless you specifically have a ST pick on you. Now some people may classify some blocks as grief bait, where other people may have different opinions on the topic; hence, the pole.

This seems to be a serious flaw in our system. Any materials used in such a way (to avoid combat) should be allowed to be destroyed without penalty. The player placing/using the blocks knows the risk in placing them. This can apply to any block. While some would call that griefing, others would call that an attempt to use the rules to circumvent normal gameplay.

As for the poll, it still doesn't make sense to have a set list. Were one to exist, users would just use materials not listed. Each situation should be handled individually.

[uni0]

This seems to be a serious flaw in our system. Any materials used in such a way (to avoid combat) should be allowed to be destroyed without penalty. The player placing/using the blocks knows the risk in placing them. This can apply to any block. While some would call that griefing, others would call that an attempt to use the rules to circumvent normal gameplay.

As for the poll, it still doesn't make sense to have a set list. Were one to exist, users would just use materials not listed. Each situation should be handled individually.

 

Part of the challenge in building a base in survival is to make it secure. That's a key gameplay feature. Some people use layers of obsidian, lava, crafting tables etc to make a roof for example. You go through all this work to make your base secure. Making a piston entrance with different kinds of blocks to slow down or deter people from entering is part of the strategy. So this is part of the gameplay, it **is** normal gameplay and should not be banned.

 

Now, why are ores currently banned for defense? Just to give some history on how we arrived to our current policy: the original reason blocks like lapis or redstone ores were banned for use as defense or in piston doors was because it could be theoretically impossible for a player to get a silk touch pick (this was in the days of lvl50 and/or no xp plump). So it was theoretically impossible for the player to fix the grief.

 

Nowadays it's extremely easy to get silk touch with enchantism, it's not longer a matter of luck.

 

Now, even with enchantism, perhaps one could still argue that to make pvp more accessible, a pvper should have an easier time to enter bases, and silk touch pick shouldn't be required. I can see that kind of argument being made, though my personal opinion is that with enchantism, there is no excuse. Everyone can and should have a silk pick and use it IF they wanna break into a base. PVP is serious business, if you are lazy and don't get silk touch, then that's your fault.

 

Having said that, suppose that ores remain banned, which is something we've been accustomed for a while. Should bookshelves and glowstone be banned? I say absolutely no. Why ban them? You can get glowstone in nether and you can craft bookshelves back easily. Again, the lazy argument applies.

 

Here's my opinion on the blocks:

 

• Glass: not grief bait, even though the block is destroyed and the player cant pick up any drop, it can easily obtained and replaced.
• Smoothstone: not grief bait, cook cobble which is the most popular block and replace, easy.
• Bookshelves: not grief bait, bookshelves can be crafted back easily.
• Glowstone: not grief bait, everyone has glowstone, if you pvp you have potions that require glowstone, so even though you get less drops when you destroy, just have spare glowstone in your enderchest to replace. OR use silk pick. Up to you. Don't be lazy.
• Leaves: not grief bait, anyone can get shears

• Blocks that can be obtained only with silk touch (ice, ores, mushroom, etc): this may or may not be grief bait, up for debate. This is very tricky, with enchantism, it could be argued everyone has silk touch and so if they choose to break into a base, they can do so easily.

 

The bottom line for me is: securing a base is exclusive to survival, you don't do this on p or c. Using blocks that slow down or deter PVPers from getting to you is part of the strategy. If you are a PVPer and you are too lazy to replace, then don't grief, find another way to get to your opponent.

 

Reality check: most of the regular PVPers tend to avoid breaking stuff to enter a base. And if they break into a base they use a hidden entrance, or pearling.

[Synergetrick]

Part of the challenge in building a base in survival is to make it secure. That's a key gameplay feature. Some people use layers of obsidian, lava, crafting tables etc to make a roof for example. You go through all this work to make your base secure. Making a piston entrance with different kinds of blocks to slow down or deter people from entering is part of the strategy. So this is part of the gameplay, it **is** normal gameplay and should not be banned.

 

Now, why are ores currently banned for defense? Just to give some history on how we arrived to our current policy: the original reason blocks like lapis or redstone ores were banned for use as defense or in piston doors was because it could be theoretically impossible for a player to get a silk touch pick (this was in the days of lvl50 and/or no xp plump). So it was theoretically impossible for the player to fix the grief.

 

Nowadays it's extremely easy to get silk touch with enchantism, it's not longer a matter of luck.

 

Now, even with enchantism, perhaps one could still argue that to make pvp more accessible, a pvper should have an easier time to enter bases, and silk touch pick shouldn't be required. I can see that kind of argument being made, though my personal opinion is that with enchantism, there is no excuse. Everyone can and should have a silk pick and use it IF they wanna break into a base. PVP is serious business, if you are lazy and don't get silk touch, then that's your fault.

 

Having said that, suppose that ores remain banned, which is something we've been accustomed for a while. Should bookshelves and glowstone be banned? I say absolutely no. Why ban them? You can get glowstone in nether and you can craft bookshelves back easily. Again, the lazy argument applies.

 

Here's my opinion on the blocks:

 

• Glass: not grief bait, even though the block is destroyed and the player cant pick up any drop, it can easily obtained and replaced.
• Smoothstone: not grief bait, cook cobble which is the most popular block and replace, easy.
• Bookshelves: not grief bait, bookshelves can be crafted back easily.
• Glowstone: not grief bait, everyone has glowstone, if you pvp you have potions that require glowstone, so even though you get less drops when you destroy, just have spare glowstone in your enderchest to replace. OR use silk pick. Up to you. Don't be lazy.
• Leaves: not grief bait, anyone can get shears

• Blocks that can be obtained only with silk touch (ice, ores, mushroom, etc): this may or may not be grief bait, up for debate. This is very tricky, with enchantism, it could be argued everyone has silk touch and so if they choose to break into a base, they can do so easily.

 

The bottom line for me is: securing a base is exclusive to survival, you don't do this on p or c. Using blocks that slow down or deter PVPers from getting to you is part of the strategy. If you are a PVPer and you are too lazy to replace, then don't grief, find another way to get to your opponent.

 

Reality check: most of the regular PVPers tend to avoid breaking stuff to enter a base. And if they break into a base they use a hidden entrance, or pearling.

 

Knock knock.

[redwall_hp]

My comprehensive definition of grief bait is:

 

1. A significantly difficult to obtain block that breaks into pieces instead of dropping itself. Silk touched ore, for example. So smoothstone is not grief bait, bookshelves wouldn't be if they don't require leather, but silk touched redstone ore would be.

 

2. Ludicrously ostentatious material usage, such as a base made of diamond blocks.

 

That said, I don't believe it should be expressly forbidden. It makes sense to just say "if you want to replace your silk touched ore whenever someone breaks it, have fun, but we don't want to see it modreq'd." To me, the "grief bait" rule is primarily about #1. The "bait" part implies that they're making it difficult to replace materials as a way to entrap players into breaking the rules.

[Mrloud15]

Just a BUMP to say I will be closing the poll this Wednesday at 11:59 EDT.

[WKONEDERFUL]

 

2. Ludicrously ostentatious material usage, such as a base made of diamond blocks.

 

 

How is that baiting though? If I think diamond blocks look boss and want to build a base out of them (while doing all the requisite hard work/mining it takes to achieve such a feat), why shouldn't I build it? A no griefing rule means leave others' builds alone, regardless of what they're made of.

Edited October 8, 2013 by WKONEDERFUL

[Mrloud15]

24 hour BUMB before the poll will be closed. 

[Mrloud15]

Closing.

 

I will be making another post about this poll within 2 weeks (Oct 24)

 

Thanks to everyone who participated.

 

Edit: Looking at changing some other rules so we will update them all at one time.