Rev 17 is coming. We need to discuss portals

[Forever_A_Steve]

As you know, we got Astrology portals this rev which is something out of the mix, really aggravated lots of people including myself.

 

 

As a Cardinal Portal Holder (Mayor of Clearmont, along with iNerd71), I believe that next rev there should just be ONLY 4 portals and NO surprises.

 

 

These 4 portals should be placed very close to the edges of the world and there should just only be 4 portals to discourage land claim congestion and encourage a more open map that encourages more infrastructure that everyone can take part in. 

 

 

Please discuss alternatives and solutions to combat 2/3 of the server quitting once the usual portal hunts are over. 

[Forever_A_Steve]

I'd like to also add that I don't mind taking all portals away but leaving the spawn portal.

[schererererer]

If you're citing player disgruntlement as a motivating factor, reduction in portal numbers to four, or god forbid one, would incite much more rage than anything else. Imo the current setup of 4+12 zodiacs is a nice compromise between desire for more portals around the map and the benefits of having a map that feels grander in scale.

[Forever_A_Steve]

If you're citing player disgruntlement as a motivating factor, reduction in portal numbers to four, or god forbid one, would incite much more rage than anything else. Imo the current setup of 4+12 zodiacs is a nice compromise between desire for more portals around the map and the benefits of having a map that feels grander in scale.

 

 

Disgruntlement is a cause, But I'd like to encourage infrastructure growth and discourage reliance on portals.

 

 

It would mean an increase of transportation, more frequent and active trade hubs, and a much less influenced geographical settlement pattern among towns and cities. 

[tobylane]

I'd like same or more portals. I was not active enough to get a feel for the zodiacs but I don't feel it was necessary.

[jllmprrt]

The zodiac portals were kind of a cool idea but I don't feel like even P is active enough anymore to support 16 portals going on at the same time. Maybe like 4 normals and 4 using some other astrology sign or something? Lol

[tobylane]

The zodiac portals were kind of a cool idea but I don't feel like even P is active enough anymore to support 16 portals going on at the same time. Maybe like 4 normals and 4 using some other astrology sign or something? Lol

 

Oh? http://bezkr.es/public/signs.php suggests that at most only two aren't a town or city.

[torteela]

Oh? http://bezkr.es/public/signs.php suggests that at most only two aren't a town or city.

>calling seneca a city

http://imgur.com/a/6LBek

I'm going to refer to the portals by their clock positions:

1 - Very low levels of activity; small town build

2 - Probably the most built up zodiac town; active corner of the map

3 - Not built in since the first week of the rev; no activity

4 - Second most built up zodiac town/area; decent activity

5 - Low to zero levels of activity; hardly anything built

6 - Low levels of activity; small build

7 - I've never been there, but doesn't seem to have changed at all since the build was finish early in the rev

8 - Decent sized town; can't comment on activity

9 - Very little built; no activity

10 - Very little built; low to no activity

11 - Small build; little activity

12 - Decent sized build; little activity

In addition out of the four always-on portals only Rose has any real activity, not that they need the portal to help them with that. Even if all the active cities on the server that weren't at portals moved to portals there wouldn't be enough to fill up all of them. And then with every town at a portal, why bother building roads or rails?

General thoughts about portals, roads, etc:

I think of portals like airplanes; they're for long distance travel. You wouldn't fly a plane to go to the next town over from you, you'd drive or take the train (if you're lucky enough to have one.) At least on our server, I think portals should be reserved for traveling very large distances to encourage a good system of roads and rails.

Roads between places are very important because they create places where people will travel along and thing "hey it'd be neat to build something here," just like towns IRL spring up on routes between two major destinations. It also encourages people to stop at builds along the way if they see something neat they want to check out. If they really like what they see maybe they'll join that town. Overland rails serve a similar purpose, in addition to also providing a fast mode of automatic travel between two locations and allowing people to go to places without needing to know the location of where they're going.

I don't think portals should be along the cardinals. Cardinal roads will always get built and they're the main way people go out of spawn after joining the server. Any town along the cardinal should get a boost in prospective players just from that, they don't need the portals as well. The portals should be in an X shape instead of a + shape, our far away from the cardinals to encourage growth in those areas.

Four portals is a good amount. Maybe 6 but not more than that.

It'd be nice if the portals were more towards the edge of the map, or at least no closer than half the map radius. The north and east portals are both 800 blocks from spawn, which is a very easy distance to walk even as a fresh join.

It'd also be cool to try not having a spawn portal. Combining that with making the portals fewer and farther away would encourage having more roads and rails to get around places.

Before the rev starts the admins could come up with the general areas they want to place a portal, but not actually place them until two weeks in, preferably putting them as far away from any builds in that area as possible. That get rids of the portal rush and encourage building in biomes/locations that people actually want to build in instead of just "we want a portal."

Edited December 27, 2015 by torteela

[Forever_A_Steve]

>calling seneca a city

http://imgur.com/a/6LBek

I'm going to refer to the portals by their clock positions:

1 - Very low levels of activity; small town build

2 - Probably the most built up zodiac town; active corner of the map

3 - Not built in since the first week of the rev; no activity

4 - Second most built up zodiac town/area; decent activity

5 - Low to zero levels of activity; hardly anything built

6 - Low levels of activity; small build

7 - I've never been there, but doesn't seem to have changed at all since the build was finish early in the rev

8 - Decent sized town; can't comment on activity

9 - Very little built; no activity

10 - Very little built; low to no activity

11 - Small build; little activity

12 - Decent sized build; little activity

In addition out of the four always-on portals only Rose has any real activity, not that they need the portal to help them with that. Even if all the active cities on the server that weren't at portals moved to portals there wouldn't be enough to fill up all of them. And then with every town at a portal, why bother building roads or rails?

General thoughts about portals, roads, etc:

I think of portals like airplanes; they're for long distance travel. You wouldn't fly a plane to go to the next town over from you, you'd drive or take the train (if you're lucky enough to have one.) At least on our server, I think portals should be reserved for traveling very large distances to encourage a good system of roads and rails.

Roads between places are very important because they create places where people will travel along and thing "hey it'd be neat to build something here," just like towns IRL spring up on routes between two major destinations. It also encourages people to stop at builds along the way if they see something neat they want to check out. If they really like what they see maybe they'll join that town. Overland rails serve a similar purpose, in addition to also providing a fast mode of automatic travel between two locations and allowing people to go to places without needing to know the location of where they're going.

I don't think portals should be along the cardinals. Cardinal roads will always get built and they're the main way people go out of spawn after joining the server. Any town along the cardinal should get a boost in prospective players just from that, they don't need the portals as well. The portals should be in an X shape instead of a + shape, our far away from the cardinals to encourage growth in those areas.

Four portals is a good amount. Maybe 6 but not more than that.

It'd be nice if the portals were more towards the edge of the map, or at least no closer than half the map radius. The north and east portals are both 800 blocks from spawn, which is a very easy distance to walk even as a fresh join.

It'd also be cool to try not having a spawn portal. Combining that with making the portals fewer and farther away would encourage having more roads and rails to get around places.

Before the rev starts the admins could come up with the general areas they want to place a portal, but not actually place them until two weeks in, preferably putting them as far away from any builds in that area as possible. That get rids of the portal rush and encourage building in biomes/locations that people actually want to build in instead of just "we want a portal."

 

 

this x1,000,000

[SwitchViewz]

Just so everyone knows were watching this thread and other feedback in mumble/ingame. I have personally heard some cool ideas and hope we can come up with something good. :)

[Emizzon]

The novelty of a rotating on/off portal system wears off pretty fast. It was entirely frustrating trying to get to the nether after settling near the edge of the map.

 

An 8 portal system + spawn seems to be the most conducive to ease of travel and promotion of an overworld transportation system. I would argue against not having a spawn portal. If I'm lost in the nether 0,0 is where I'm headed.

[Forever_A_Steve]

The novelty of a rotating on/off portal system wears off pretty fast. It was entirely frustrating trying to get to the nether after settling near the edge of the map.

 

An 8 portal system + spawn seems to be the most conducive to ease of travel and promotion of an overworld transportation system. I would argue against not having a spawn portal. If I'm lost in the nether 0,0 is where I'm headed.

 

 

I support having a spawn portal, but we need to shave portal counts to 4 so players can develop more instead of playing and relying on portal hopscotch.

 

 

There are some hidden benefits on taking pressure off of towns to making a portal a must have. 

 

 

 

Mitigating portal mad rushes will help. Taking pressure off of towns and encourage locations to where they are happy will help. Encouraging infrastructure development by decreasing portal counts will help.

Need to take a trip to the nether? Make it count. It's supposed to be minecraft hell, not a happy shortcut. 

 

 

 

edit: regarding torteela's idea, I'd also recommend putting a buffer around portals so towns cant claim them, just like spawn.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Forever_A_Steve

[Guest]

I think the cardinal portals were quite too close this time around. Ofc the map was smaller and there were Zodiacs so it explains it. But for the roads and rails to properly develop I vote for lesser portals.

 

Maybe even do something crazy like only three portals in non cardinal directions, meant to travel far distances instead of making things too fast and easy. Assuming the map will remain on this smaller size most people like, it should work well.

 

In addition to these initial 3 portals (fine 4 if you want your cardinals, but you got awesome roads to those already, no portal needed) when you expand the map at some point (if that happens) you'd add 3 new portals to that new area. This map extension with portals should be shouted out almost as if a new rev was upon us. New land, new PORTALS to claim. Your land rush excitement without resetting the rev!

 

So yeah. My two cents.

[Herr_Fawkes]

I think the cardinal portals were quite too close this time around. Ofc the map was smaller and there were Zodiacs so it explains it. But for the roads and rails to properly develop I vote for lesser portals.

 

Maybe even do something crazy like only three portals in non cardinal directions, meant to travel far distances instead of making things too fast and easy. Assuming the map will remain on this smaller size most people like, it should work well.

 

In addition to these initial 3 portals (fine 4 if you want your cardinals, but you got awesome roads to those already, no portal needed) when you expand the map at some point (if that happens) you'd add 3 new portals to that new area. This map extension with portals should be shouted out almost as if a new rev was upon us. New land, new PORTALS to claim. Your land rush excitement without resetting the rev!

 

So yeah. My two cents.

The cardinals were too close, and only two (Rose and Clearmont) ever got a city built around them. North cardinal was beset upon by the public safety menace that was Melon Junction, and Westfall was a private build. I like the idea of adding portals to the map if/when it expands, but I think we need 4 to start. The map is logically divisible into 4 quadrants, and it makes sense to have a portal in each. These don't need to be on the cardinal axes. As much as I like the spawn portal, I think it should be removed only because the point of Minecraft is to explore and eventually find the nether portal, not get one at spawn and use it before the other portals are earned. There's no spawn end portal, so there shouldn't be a spawn nether portal.

[unce]

I agree with Steve on portals killing infrastructure. Reducing it down to a spawn portal and 4 cardinal portals(at the cardinal points, not moved 500 blocks or whatever) would make the rail systems more useful. I'd also like to see more waterways added, kinda like that one CTF map. Having to actually travel the map lets you see more cool builds and land.

[Wozdaka]

I like the idea behind the portals in Rev16. It was to encourage roads/rails between the quad portals. As at anytime one of those 3 would be open. It also created roads/rails to the 4 perm portals.

 

I saw a dip in nether activity. Most of the time the desire to use/see nether was limited to just if you wanted drops form the nether. Otherwise there was no point in using it.

 

So given this I am torn. I like the idea of needed infrastructure but I feel the nether becoming more useless a sad thing.

 

Honestly I like the idea of 1 nether portal at spawn. Then no other nether portal. After 1 week. Settlements can apply for a nether portal. If the build is big enough or significant enough then give them a perm portal.

 

Why this idea?  

 

An example is Cancer's Cobble town. They rushed to get a portal. and build a cobble village and that was it. I know the rules allowed after a few weeks to re-claim it but honestly once someone builds on a portal like that the effort to clean it up and re-do it just is a pain. It killed the motivation for anyone in that biome/portal. It felt like we had a large void in the desert.

 

Also large builds of significance impacts the server in a positive way. Say if Rose finds a nice biome to build but instead goes build on the fixed portal. They are sacrificing location based on nether access. Seems inflexible. They have many people and do cool builds. Why not let them be at the biome they want?

If argoth/Ambrosia/Yowie does the Large NE build why not give them 1 perm portal to share. You just made 3 towns well motivated to build and work together.

 

So again the idea is 1 portal at spawn. Then after 1 week a city or a group of cities who have established themselves/allied up can work to apply to the mods to get a portal to share. This gives some flexibility in location, makes it interesting and rewards co-operation. Also mid-late rev say we get a late coming city/allied build they can continue to request a portal.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Wozdaka

[Denevien]

How do you quantify what is the requirements for approval of a portal. You have to have some measurable goal, or you will have some angry players, being subjective does not work.

How far apart must a portal be from another portal? If possible, every town would have their own portal. Sometimes, towns accidentally start building next to each other, since there is no live map early game. Players will be mad if they work hard to earn one, but neighboring town already got one.

What is considered "establishing themselves"? Roads? Cobble builds? I'm not trying to say your idea is bad, it just needs to be fleshed out before it can be a valid suggestion.

[Guest]

How do you quantify what is the requirements for approval of a portal. You have to have some measurable goal, or you will have some angry players, being subjective does not work.

How far apart must a portal be from another portal? If possible, every town would have their own portal. Sometimes, towns accidentally start building next to each other, since there is no live map early game. Players will be mad if they work hard to earn one, but neighboring town already got one.

What is considered "establishing themselves"? Roads? Cobble builds? I'm not trying to say your idea is bad, it just needs to be fleshed out before it can be a valid suggestion.

 

Last time this was talked about, it came to the suggestion of "buying" a portal with hard to get materials that would require quite some effort to get. It would give everyone the equal chance to get one, but it wouldn't be easy.

 

https://nerd.nu/forums/topic/3645-pve-general-poll-for-future-revisions/

[Silversunset01]

The challenge with that is that it still favors towns with large player counts. Individuals would have a hard time getting a portal Via the 'purchase' method.

I guess the deeper question is this. What is the purpose of portals. Is it to allow access to distant areas? Or simply for resources? I have always viewed them as a public transport system, I know some of the other padmins view them as more resource access. If we can agree on their core purpose it makes the placement question much easier.

[Guest]

The challenge with that is that it still favors towns with large player counts. Individuals would have a hard time getting a portal Via the 'purchase' method.

I guess the deeper question is this. What is the purpose of portals. Is it to allow access to distant areas? Or simply for resources? I have always viewed them as a public transport system, I know some of the other padmins view them as more resource access. If we can agree on their core purpose it makes the placement question much easier.

 

 

The discussion there was about how people were tired of nether portals being hosted by dead places and that was the suggestion how to overcome the problem. If a portal requires teamwork from several people it's less likely to be a place that will be abandoned.

[Forever_A_Steve]

Or we can just place portals with buffers. Maybe 1 rail to each of them and a rail station that anyone can connect to. 

[Silversunset01]

Or we can just place portals with buffers. Maybe 1 rail to each of them and a rail station that anyone can connect to.

Seems like more things staff would have to make. So much time.

[torteela]

Honestly I think its time we ditch Mojang's portal system and write one of our own. I understand that writing a plugin takes time and effort, so we wouldn't have it for this next rev, but Mojang's way of doing portals doesn't work well with the kind of server we have and it'd be good for the server in the long run to have more control over it.

 

Some ideas for custom portals:

• Cooldowns, where on exiting the nether you can't reenter for a period of time
• Sacrificing xp/items to enter the nether
• Being able to enter the nether from any portal but only exit from certain ones, or the other way around, can exit from any but only enter from a few
• Different types of portals, e.g. portals where you can only exit through the portal you entered from, portals that let you enter the nether but not exit, portals where if you enter you can only exit from one of the same type, portals that automatically return you to the overworld after a period of time

It'd also be nice to adjust the nether ratio to something not as dramatic as 1/8, which would give people who use the nether for resources more of them and give people who like doing roads/rails in the overworld meaning still. It'd also discourage short hops to the next town over via the nether but still make it worth it for longer trips.

Edited December 30, 2015 by torteela

[Forever_A_Steve]

Less portals, please. 

[Trooprm32]

Honestly I think its time we ditch Mojang's portal system and write one of our own. I understand that writing a plugin takes time and effort, so we wouldn't have it for this next rev, but Mojang's way of doing portals doesn't work well with the kind of server we have and it'd be good for the server in the long run to have more control over it.

 

Some ideas for custom portals:

• Cooldowns, where on exiting the nether you can't reenter for a period of time
• Sacrificing xp/items to enter the nether
• Being able to enter the nether from any portal but only exit from certain ones, or the other way around, can exit from any but only enter from a few
• Different types of portals, e.g. portals where you can only exit through the portal you entered from, portals that let you enter the nether but not exit, portals where if you enter you can only exit from one of the same type, portals that automatically return you to the overworld after a period of time

It'd also be nice to adjust the nether ratio to something not as dramatic as 1/8, which would give people who use the nether for resources more of them and give people who like doing roads/rails in the overworld meaning still. It'd also discourage short hops to the next town over via the nether but still make it worth it for longer trips.

 

This actually sounds like a really neat idea; a Portal overhaul.

 

A few of these things are possible at the moment: nether ratio can be altered, portals can manually connect to certain other portals. The other things like cost of use, and timed entry would obviously have to be taken from elsewhere or made in-house.