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Mrloud15

Banning Policy

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I think that's exactly the point of a tempban, Wayne.  It wouldn't supplant bans, just complement them.  If you need someone's assurances that they know the rules and won't break them again, then straight-up ban them.  If you just think they need a few minutes, or even an hour or a day to "cool off," then give them a tempban.  Like I said in the other thread, a tempban shouldn't be a "free unban," it should be used as a "time out" or "cool down period."

Or a period to make said banned individual more pissed off at the people who banned them?

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While we're on the subject of bans being private or not, perhaps implement a system where the banned player can request their appeal become public? It would still allow for privacy and help alleviate some of the earlier mentioned issues, while also allowing transparency if the banned users feel like they have been treated unfairly.

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Since this is a discussion about the banning policies, I would like to ask if we could get the ability to send larger pictures to channels in mumble? If i recalled the picture limit size limit was recently added because of one situation between a group of players. I think just because there was 1 accident like this between players it is a little unfair to remove this privilege from every other user.

Yes, people have crashed other peoples mumble clients including mine by posting large pictures, and then the size limit was put in place. I'm wondering if this size limit can be disabled on 1 channel so people can post pictures and have a laugh, but keep the size limit in place for other channels, like PvE, Creative, Tech Stuff, etc. Anyway that's just my thought on that

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BTW, I feel it's worth mentioning that numerous servers (at least from what I can tell) subscribe to the bans from MCPublic. That means if someone is banned here, they may not be able to access some other servers in the duration of the ban. That's something to consider when discussing ban policy, as it doesn't just affect this group of servers, but also certain other servers as well.

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Bans are sloppy business on this server, since policy changes according to how badly a member of staff wants to ban a player, while at the same time we insist that the same rules are being enforced in each case.

 

Personal grievance is as big an influence in these bans as wider server opinion.  For instance, Forzaire’s shenanigans attracted very little ire in-game, but his appeal was handled very confrontationally. Slide was really annoyed by his behaviour outside of the game and set out to make an example of him.

 

The attitude that the player base needs teaching like this is really “toxic”. MCPublic’s banning system serves to help people play Minecraft; it is not a daycare or a HR department. The way players chose to play does not need to be moulded or managed. Don’t blame them for behaving like kids if that’s how you choose to treat them. Disrespect between players and staff can run both ways and neither is good for the health of the servers.

 

We need fewer better written rules, a broader range of mods enforcing them and better use of server specific rules.

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Ridiculous the same rules are being enforced, it's just the culumation of past offences that is adding to the ban length. Abiuv did a lot to annoy the admins, it seems entirely justified that they are annoyed, and yet they could still fall back on extending the ban length because of past offences. Maybe it is toxic that the players need teaching, but isn't a better way to phrase that "The players are being toxic in ways that are set out in the list of things not to do if you want to stay on the server"? The way players choose to play does need to be moulded, we aren't 2b2t, we're four/five years into not being chaos. They aren't treated like children, every appeal at least starts off kindly and I don't see any ban appeal ending in childish actions from admins. Whenever there's been removal of rules there's been additions later on, because the players are testing the rules to the limits and finding something that the admins wanted to be covered all along.

 

Basically, you blame the admins, and I blame the players. Thats why I said last thread it's no good basing people's views of the ban policy on these cumulative bans. You're emotionally invested in your friends availability, where this discussion needs to either focus on first time bans, or it'll keep going around "unfair ban", "it was his 20th ban, and lenient".

 

Abiuv was a nice person when I talked to him, I worked with and near him for several hours. I'm not happy thinking that his actions are actions of one of the nicer regulars, but those are the facts in front of me.

 

I feel like we've ruled out less leniency, ruled out automatic mutes/bans, and ruled out the possibility that there's too many bans. What do other servers do when they've got this far?

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Bans are sloppy business on this server, since policy changes according to how badly a member of staff wants to ban a player, while at the same time we insist that the same rules are being enforced in each case.

 

Personal grievance is as big an influence in these bans as wider server opinion.  For instance, Forzaire’s shenanigans attracted very little ire in-game, but his appeal was handled very confrontationally. Slide was really annoyed by his behaviour outside of the game and set out to make an example of him.

 

The attitude that the player base needs teaching like this is really “toxic”. MCPublic’s banning system serves to help people play Minecraft; it is not a daycare or a HR department. The way players chose to play does not need to be moulded or managed. Don’t blame them for behaving like kids if that’s how you choose to treat them. Disrespect between players and staff can run both ways and neither is good for the health of the servers.

 

We need fewer better written rules, a broader range of mods enforcing them and better use of server specific rules.

I agree with all of this.

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Ridiculous the same rules are being enforced, it's just the culumation of past offences that is adding to the ban length. Abiuv did a lot to annoy the admins, it seems entirely justified that they are annoyed, and yet they could still fall back on extending the ban length because of past offences. Maybe it is toxic that the players need teaching, but isn't a better way to phrase that "The players are being toxic in ways that are set out in the list of things not to do if you want to stay on the server"? The way players choose to play does need to be moulded, we aren't 2b2t, we're four/five years into not being chaos. They aren't treated like children, every appeal at least starts off kindly and I don't see any ban appeal ending in childish actions from admins. Whenever there's been removal of rules there's been additions later on, because the players are testing the rules to the limits and finding something that the admins wanted to be covered all along.

 

With your starting comment on Abiuv, I'm just going to assume you're primarily talking about his birthday, which was the thing that started the entire fiasco, no? If that small incident with a birthday appearing on the forums had been handled better/ignored altogether, then the entire string of alts/bans etc wouldn't have happened. Going further into your first paragraph, you're effectively saying that the way we play is incorrect. Let me remind you that the people that play as of the moment are what's left of our entire playerbase. It's all we have left, and frankly these players aren't going to be predefined after having played on these servers for so long, having fought for it and against it. 

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With your starting comment on Abiuv, I'm just going to assume you're primarily talking about his birthday, which was the thing that started the entire fiasco, no? If that small incident with a birthday appearing on the forums had been handled better/ignored altogether, then the entire string of alts/bans etc wouldn't have happened. Going further into your first paragraph, you're effectively saying that the way we play is incorrect. Let me remind you that the people that play as of the moment are what's left of our entire playerbase. It's all we have left, and frankly these players aren't going to be predefined after having played on these servers for so long, having fought for it and against it.

Not many things make me laugh, but this was one of them. First off did you just state that us having a problem with Abuiv changing his birthday everyday is what caused him to break more rules? I mean just taking a few seconds to think over that made me laugh a lot.

So it is essentially our fault for banning abuiv for breaking the rules? What kind of community do you enjoy eehee?... One with no rules?

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Not many things make me laugh, but this was one of them. First off did you just state that us having a problem with Abuiv changing his birthday everyday is what caused him to break more rules? I mean just taking a few seconds to think over that made me laugh a lot.

So it is essentially our fault for banning abuiv for breaking the rules? What kind of community do you enjoy eehee?... One with no rules?

Banning Abiuv for a shitty reason is probably what made him realize that he's wasting his time here with staff that can't take a joke for jackshit and are offended by the slightest hint of fun in a social group that they don't want to associate themselves with. The reason he started using the Forzaire alt account for Minecraft in the first place (before his bans and such) was because he felt Survival was dead and he wanted to have a fresh start - hilarious bans like the birthday one generally convinced him that his time here needs to come to an end and so he went out with a bang. 

Let me remind you that having a birthday isn't breaking rules, friend. 

As for the type of community I prefer, I like one that I've been a member of for a long time that isn't fucktwaddled with by people that aren't directly associated with it. 

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Banning Abiuv for a shitty reason is probably what made him realize that he's wasting his time here with staff that can't take a joke for jackshit and are offended by the slightest hint of fun in a social group that they don't want to associate themselves with. The reason he started using the Forzaire alt account for Minecraft in the first place (before his bans and such) was because he felt Survival was dead and he wanted to have a fresh start - hilarious bans like the birthday one generally convinced him that his time here needs to come to an end and so he went out with a bang. 

Let me remind you that having a birthday isn't breaking rules, friend. 

As for the type of community I prefer, I like one that I've been a member of for a long time that isn't fucktwaddled with by people that aren't directly associated with it. 

We did not just ban him out of the blue. We gave him many chances to stop, and he chose to ignore every one of them. He was only banned from mumble and in game after being banned from the forums for a week and going right back to what he was banned and warned for. So, how would you have liked for us to handle it? 

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We did not just ban him out of the blue. We gave him many chances to stop, and he chose to ignore every one of them. He was only banned from mumble and in game after being banned from the forums for a week and going right back to what he was banned and warned for. So, how would you have liked for us to handle it? 

Ignoring his birthday thing altogether would've been the best fix in my mind, as it didn't/couldn't hurt anyone and wasn't even intended to be frustrating to staff. 

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Ignoring his birthday thing altogether would've been the best fix in my mind, as it didn't/couldn't hurt anyone and wasn't even intended to be frustrating to staff.

But again eehee, rolling over and playing dead is not what being a staff member is about. It's about eliminating trolls who cause disturbances in the community and allowing the community to enjoy all the benefits of gameplay while not having any disturbances.

Although I can see explaining any of this to you will do no good, he staff are not here as someone to "oppress" or create drama with players, just to keep the community running.

And no having a birthday isn't against the rules, friend... But it's 100% trollish to take the time EVERYDAY to change your birthday. Personally I find it a little sad he has to resort to such means of attention but nonetheless it's not something to simply "ignore"

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But again eehee, rolling over and playing dead is not what being a staff member is about. It's about eliminating trolls who cause disturbances in the community and allowing the community to enjoy all the benefits of gameplay while not having any disturbances.

Although I can see explaining any of this to you will do no good, he staff are not here as someone to "oppress" or create drama with players, just to keep the community running.

And no having a birthday isn't against the rules, friend... But it's 100% trollish to take the time EVERYDAY to change your birthday. Personally I find it a little sad he has to resort to such means of attention but nonetheless it's not something to simply "ignore"

I actually don't understand how changing the date of a birthday can cause a disturbance in a community made up of mature people. Was he targeting/insulting anyone or any party in particular? No, he was avin a giggle about his birthday, a small joke that really shouldn't have affected anyone. 

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Ignoring his birthday thing altogether would've been the best fix in my mind, as it didn't/couldn't hurt anyone and wasn't even intended to be frustrating to staff. 

And we did for the first couple days until several players, staff and non-staff, brought it to our attention. I will be the first one to say that his ban has turned into something way bigger than it needed to be, but it did because of his actions. We were reacting to his actions, nothing more.

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And we did for the first couple days until several players, staff and non-staff, brought it to our attention. I will be the first one to say that his ban has turned into something way bigger than it needed to be, but it did because of his actions. We were reacting to his actions, nothing more.

 

Initially after being asked to stop he even apologized and said he would

 

 

 

I'll stop with the birthdays and what not, sorry bout that all. -Forzaire

 

yet failed to do so and continued even after several warnings

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I feel like this thread has turned into why Abiuv was banned instead of figuring a solution to a problem. So lets go back to the beginning and get back on topic.

 

This was started because nerd reached 100k bans, yet only 14.7% of those have happened in the last year and a half. That means that in total, 14,700 people have been banned from our servers. Take that into players per month, and you end up with 816 (give or take 1) and finally, that comes out to about 27 players per day are being banned on all 3 servers. So, from this, 9 players from each server are banned daily, most who come on to troll or grief because we are the popular public reddit server. For me, 9 players a day who are banned from S who aren't really there to play doesn't effect me too much. Not only that, but the staff carefully look over players before banning, such as seeing if it makes sense that they would have 900 blocks destroyed without placing more than 5. I haven't made a single ban without another staff members opinion (shoutout to smdavis who is normally the player to help) and when I have, it has been for players who obviously aren't here to help build the community everyone wants. 

 

So with all this said, what are we really trying to do here? Lower our already massive ban numbers because of 2011/2012? In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with our system. It weeds players out who don't actually want to play on the server. However I always like hearing the other side of things. Can someone please make an unbiased post about why we should change our way?  

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Well time for me to get involved again.

This was actually one part that drove me away from the servers too.
The massive amount of Bans, the missing backup from the Adminteam and the inconsistence with Bans.


In my eyes Permaban means a player will never return to the Server, No matter how much time has passed. Yet to get a permaban a player must have done something very bad. Like Doxxing a Player or staffmember or Leaking Server Passwords or Harrassing the Staff in such a way that normal gameplay just isnt possible anymore when he is around.
I would also count multiple prior bans to this category. Just because if a player has been banned like 10 times before he has clearly proven that he doesnt care.


The next thing thats something that drove me away too was the amount of bans issued and why they were issued.

In my time as a mod i have seen players getting banned for breaking 10 blocks of wheat, wool, dirt, or just a door.
A simple kick should have been enough to get the attention of that user. Most of those users clearly were newbies or under the age of 12. Those banned users are a reason too why there are not enough players anymore. I can just speak for the bans i made, but i left the modteam almost a year ago. So far i havent seen someone i banned making an appeal. I know most of those players i banned would actually have a chance on getting unbanned, but if they dont appeal, do you really think a newbie will ?

As i said i am playing on a different server now, and the funny thing is one of our mods was actually banned from the nerd servers for griefing. When i asked him what happened he answered me, that he was banned for removing glowstone that was spammed all over his land and build. I told him he could appeal his ban and he answered me that he sees no point in it. Because it was his build nd claim and the banning mod didnt even talk to him.



Another thing thats also a big problem is the shear amount of rules.
Everytime something unsuspected happens you guys make a rule about it. The server im playing on atm only got 8 rules and it works perfectly
Your server on the other hand needs a whole wiki for the rules alone, no wonder people get annoyed and confused by it.
Lets have a look at them for a moment.


Please be respectful and civil towards your fellow players. Harassment of any kind will not be tolerated.
No sexism, racism, homophobia or any type of hate speech.
Excessively negative comments or disruptive arguments/discussions in global chat are not tolerated. This includes, but is not limited to, discussions concerning politics, religion, issues with staff/policy, issues with specific other players, or validity of bans. Any and all such conversations should be conducted in/moved to private channels, such as /msg, clanchat, or /mail.

These three rules could all be put under one simple rule.

No whining or offensive language. Be respectful.



Players using modifications to change gameplay may be asked to stop, kicked, or banned with little or no warning depending on the severity of the situation.This includes, but is not limited to: noclip, invincibility, speed modification, xray/ore-detection, and duping hacks. (Note that Survival has its own list of approved client mods; see below.)
No attempts to circumvent any protections on the server, including but not limited to the server script, LWC (Chest protection), WorldGuard (Block protection), and No Cheat Plus.
No use of bugs or exploits (eg: item duping).

Again three rules that can be put into one simple rule

Do not exploit glitches or use unfair client mods.



No griefing, including but not limited to:
Destroying blocks placed by other players.
Placing blocks or leaving inappropriate signs on other player’s structures.
Flooding structures.
Spamming items.
Destroying crops without replanting.
Note that this rule is not applicable on the chaos server.

No "grief-baiting". This means that players cannot try to get other players in trouble by tricking/forcing them to destroying structures in an attempt to get the player warned or banned.

Redstone mechanisms, dispensers, and pistons may be removed at moderator discretion; abuse of these (e.g. lag inducing) may result in a ban.


Again 3 Rules that are just overcomplicated. A simple No griefing, stealing or spamming. Would do the same job, you dont need to list all the possible versions of griefing. I mean just think about it if this keeps going on, the lawbook would look like this.
Do not murder someone, including but not limited to:
Murder with Lightbulbs, firearms, knifes, blunt objects, doorknobs, toasters, dogpoo, your grandma, etc


You are just overthinking the rules to get every possible thing that could happen covered, and that is what drives players away or gets them to search for loopholes.


The last things that really bugs me are the open Ban appeals.

The only persons that should be concerned by them are the banned person and the person that banned him.
Other users shoudnt know why User A was banned and what his "punishment" was, that way User B cant whine about getting a longer ban or a different treatment.
Also i think (here it is another loophole in the rules) that Ban appeals for Alt accounts or the questions about possible alt accounts are against this rule:
No posting of other players' personal information without their explicit permission in general chat or to anyone else on the servers, including but not limited to: names, photographs, addresses, and social networking profiles.
Since the mods/admins demand that the player tells them in relationship the said accounts are, wich clearly is personal data.

Also this "rule" We are not in the business of protecting players' alt accounts - but if a player has made it clear that they don't want their alt accounts publicized, then you need to respect that. Is to complicated for banappeals
If an admin asks about a possible alt account the banned person had no chance at all to say he doesnt want that one publicized.
Which is another reason for the Ban appeals to be private.


See what i meant with the search for loopholes ?



tl:dr
Slim down the rules you dont need to cover every single possibillity.
Stop banning for small infractions, Ask first shot later.
Permanent means permanent.
Ban appeals only concern the Banned account and the banning mod and should be private to make the mod work easier.

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Well time for me to get involved again.

This was actually one part that drove me away from the servers too.

The massive amount of Bans, the missing backup from the Adminteam and the inconsistence with Bans.

In my eyes Permaban means a player will never return to the Server, No matter how much time has passed. Yet to get a permaban a player must have done something very bad. Like Doxxing a Player or staffmember or Leaking Server Passwords or Harrassing the Staff in such a way that normal gameplay just isnt possible anymore when he is around.

I would also count multiple prior bans to this category. Just because if a player has been banned like 10 times before he has clearly proven that he doesnt care.

The next thing thats something that drove me away too was the amount of bans issued and why they were issued.

In my time as a mod i have seen players getting banned for breaking 10 blocks of wheat, wool, dirt, or just a door.

A simple kick should have been enough to get the attention of that user. Most of those users clearly were newbies or under the age of 12. Those banned users are a reason too why there are not enough players anymore. I can just speak for the bans i made, but i left the modteam almost a year ago. So far i havent seen someone i banned making an appeal. I know most of those players i banned would actually have a chance on getting unbanned, but if they dont appeal, do you really think a newbie will ?

As i said i am playing on a different server now, and the funny thing is one of our mods was actually banned from the nerd servers for griefing. When i asked him what happened he answered me, that he was banned for removing glowstone that was spammed all over his land and build. I told him he could appeal his ban and he answered me that he sees no point in it. Because it was his build nd claim and the banning mod didnt even talk to him.

Another thing thats also a big problem is the shear amount of rules.

Everytime something unsuspected happens you guys make a rule about it. The server im playing on atm only got 8 rules and it works perfectly

Your server on the other hand needs a whole wiki for the rules alone, no wonder people get annoyed and confused by it.

Lets have a look at them for a moment.

Please be respectful and civil towards your fellow players. Harassment of any kind will not be tolerated.

No sexism, racism, homophobia or any type of hate speech.

Excessively negative comments or disruptive arguments/discussions in global chat are not tolerated. This includes, but is not limited to, discussions concerning politics, religion, issues with staff/policy, issues with specific other players, or validity of bans. Any and all such conversations should be conducted in/moved to private channels, such as /msg, clanchat, or /mail.

These three rules could all be put under one simple rule.

No whining or offensive language. Be respectful.

Players using modifications to change gameplay may be asked to stop, kicked, or banned with little or no warning depending on the severity of the situation.This includes, but is not limited to: noclip, invincibility, speed modification, xray/ore-detection, and duping hacks. (Note that Survival has its own list of approved client mods; see below.)

No attempts to circumvent any protections on the server, including but not limited to the server script, LWC (Chest protection), WorldGuard (Block protection), and No Cheat Plus.

No use of bugs or exploits (eg: item duping).

Again three rules that can be put into one simple rule

Do not exploit glitches or use unfair client mods.

No griefing, including but not limited to:

Destroying blocks placed by other players.

Placing blocks or leaving inappropriate signs on other player’s structures.

Flooding structures.

Spamming items.

Destroying crops without replanting.

Note that this rule is not applicable on the chaos server.

No "grief-baiting". This means that players cannot try to get other players in trouble by tricking/forcing them to destroying structures in an attempt to get the player warned or banned.

Redstone mechanisms, dispensers, and pistons may be removed at moderator discretion; abuse of these (e.g. lag inducing) may result in a ban.

Again 3 Rules that are just overcomplicated. A simple No griefing, stealing or spamming. Would do the same job, you dont need to list all the possible versions of griefing. I mean just think about it if this keeps going on, the lawbook would look like this.

Do not murder someone, including but not limited to:

Murder with Lightbulbs, firearms, knifes, blunt objects, doorknobs, toasters, dogpoo, your grandma, etc

You are just overthinking the rules to get every possible thing that could happen covered, and that is what drives players away or gets them to search for loopholes.

The last things that really bugs me are the open Ban appeals.

The only persons that should be concerned by them are the banned person and the person that banned him.

Other users shoudnt know why User A was banned and what his "punishment" was, that way User B cant whine about getting a longer ban or a different treatment.

Also i think (here it is another loophole in the rules) that Ban appeals for Alt accounts or the questions about possible alt accounts are against this rule:

No posting of other players' personal information without their explicit permission in general chat or to anyone else on the servers, including but not limited to: names, photographs, addresses, and social networking profiles.

Since the mods/admins demand that the player tells them in relationship the said accounts are, wich clearly is personal data.

Also this "rule" We are not in the business of protecting players' alt accounts - but if a player has made it clear that they don't want their alt accounts publicized, then you need to respect that. Is to complicated for banappeals

If an admin asks about a possible alt account the banned person had no chance at all to say he doesnt want that one publicized.

Which is another reason for the Ban appeals to be private.

See what i meant with the search for loopholes ?

tl:dr

Slim down the rules you dont need to cover every single possibillity.

Stop banning for small infractions, Ask first shot later.

Permanent means permanent.

Ban appeals only concern the Banned account and the banning mod and should be private to make the mod work easier.

 

You left the mod team over a year ago, yet you speak as if you know everything about the current server. This server continues to grow and change, and improvements are being made everyday. This thread is an example of that, someone wanting to discuss the banning policy. I'm just curious, in what part of your post did you attempt to discuss the current banning policy and what we should be looking at to fix/improve it? Slimming down the rules doesnt change the banning policy, banning for minor infractions doesn't change the banning policy, perma bans remaining permanent kind of effects the banning policy (due to the fact that the current policy then wouldn't effect perma banned players as they just couldn't appeal) and lastly, you finally get to the ban appeals and choose to say we should just keep things private. However, whether ban appeals are kept private or not, the process the players and staff would have to go through is till unchanged, so I don't see the relation. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like you're here to try and bash on a server you left by comparing it to another server you enjoy. 

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You left the mod team over a year ago, yet you speak as if you know everything about the current server. This server continues to grow and change, and improvements are being made everyday. This thread is an example of that, someone wanting to discuss the banning policy. I'm just curious, in what part of your post did you attempt to discuss the current banning policy and what we should be looking at to fix/improve it? Slimming down the rules doesnt change the banning policy, banning for minor infractions doesn't change the banning policy, perma bans remaining permanent kind of effects the banning policy (due to the fact that the current policy then wouldn't effect perma banned players as they just couldn't appeal) and lastly, you finally get to the ban appeals and choose to say we should just keep things private. However, whether ban appeals are kept private or not, the process the players and staff would have to go through is till unchanged, so I don't see the relation. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like you're here to try and bash on a server you left by comparing it to another server you enjoy. 

To be fair, a lot of the things he discussed involves rules and policy that involves or leads up to bans and the appeals related to them. Banning people for minor infractions, permabans, how appeals are handled, and the number of rules all have to deal with banning policy in some degree or another. And there's no need for accusations of bashing one server for another, especially since I didn't get much malice from his post. It's not like there's nothing to be learned from the way other servers handle things. There's no reason to start fights. We've had enough of those lately -_-

 

Back on topic. You do bring up some interesting topics Njord, many of which I find myself agreeing with at least somewhat. I'll try to bring up my views on some of them in a bit of detail.

 

Permabans

 

In regards to your points on permabans, I agree that it is kind of annoying how some players can keep getting banned over and over again and not get permanently removed despite being an obvious harm to the community and the staff that manage it. And it is a bit hypocritical to see previously "permabanned" players brought back after some time. However, our policies are always changing through discussions like this one here. We aren't the same servers we were 4 or 5 years ago, or even 1 year ago.

 

An interesting argument I heard against permabans was that once a player is permanently banned, they have zero reason to care about the servers' well being because they know that there is no further punishment that can be dished on them. This has led to said players coming on and disrupting the other aspects of the community(particularly forums, mumble, and subreddit) via spam and other trollish behavior. And while I find such actions incredibly childish and petty, they're definitely encouraged by the lack of possibility of coming back. That's why I agree more with the more commonly implemented policy of increasing ban lengths for repeated offenses, culminating in ban durations of months or even years. That way the possibility of coming back still exists, but by the time it comes those disruptive players will likely be bored and uninterested in coming back. Sure, there will be people who will continue trolling despite whatever punishment is given to them, usually in rebellion to it even if it is completely fair(whatever your definition of fair may be), but those people will probably always seek to cause harm, so moot point.

 

Rules and Spawn

 

It is somewhat of an issue just how many rules we have. I joined way back in rev 4 when pve was still relatively new and we didn't have nearly as many rules, and to this day I can't recall having read the rules at spawn, at least in one sitting, aside from staff related stuff like checking to see if they're all there when setting up spawn(mind you I'm well acquainted with the rules at this point :P). Why not? Because it's BORING. Really boring. If I'm a new player joining multiplayer I don't want to read 50 signs telling me what I can and can't do, I just want to blocks. While the rulebook is at least a bit better and definitely a step in the right direction, it does still seem to be an issue, because it's 24 pages long. I checked. As a side point I'm very grateful for the recent rewording of a lot of our rules making them a lot stronger and more enforceable(eg don't be a dick rule was removed). I think the best approach is to spell it out ingame using guidelines in as few words as possible while still being helpful and not vague, and have a deposit of rules that can be easily referenced such as easy links to the wiki that goes into greater details of the nuances of each and every rule for added insurance against would-be rule lawyers who try to step around them. While you argue to the contrary, I do feel we need to cover every little possible corner that could be exploited because people will try to exploit them. But that doesn't mean that we have to force otherwise decent players to read 30 paragraphs of text, especially at spawn. As a simple suggestion we could have it link you to the wiki when you type /rulebook as well as giving you an ingame rulebook. Color coordinating the rules is also very effective! I recently went to a server where the rulebook had DO and DON'T for each rule and guideline. The easier and less boring it is to read, the more chances people will read it, which is the first step to following them.

 

Banning

 

I also agree that bans on new players who don't know better is a strong deterrent for coming back. Why go through an appeal process when I can just find a different server? Despite this though, I do feel that we've made better attempts in recent times, at least on P from what I've seen, to warn players who commit things like crop grief, chat spam, or hate speech at least once before banning them. If we can make it so that new players know not to do such things ahead of time in a far more effective manner(going back to to the previous paragraph), we'd end up with a lot less new players who want to be productive who end up being banned.

 

I also like the idea someone suggested earlier where instead of "You have been banned. Appeal at nerd.nu/appeal", which leaves some thinking that they're banned permanently if they can't prove they didn't do it, we can instead say for example: "You have been banned. You can get unbanned at nerd.nu/appeal". Someone can probably word it better than that, but make sure people know in the ban message that they are not permabanned and can get unbanned by following simple procedures. I think making that known might at the very least encourage more people to appeal. It can't hurt.

 

Appeals and Alts

 

As for making ban appeals private, I mentioned this earlier in the thread but I feel all it would do is remove accountability from the staff and the playerbase, as well as making archiving much harder. In the long run I think it's a bad idea. For alt accounts and how they are dealt with I think that's a topic that has a lot of points that could be made for or against, and deserves a bit more discussion.

 

TL;DR

  • Permabans don't work in the long run as much as long sentences because it encourages even more trolling
  • Rules in spawn and the rulebook need to be shorter and easier to read for the layman/newbie. Outline the nitty gritty details in the wiki and make it easy to get to that page ingame if people want to see them.
  • Reword the ban message to encourage appealing your ban more, rather than giving the impression of permanent ban
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If the ingame rulebook and signs were one or two book pages, ending in a line like "Further details and examples of our rules can be found at (wiki/website address)" would that be acceptable? Any ban appeal saying something like "It wasn't obvious from the ingame book" wouldn't be acceptable, the player should feel the need to check their actions with the wiki or chat.

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Rules and Spawn

 

It is somewhat of an issue just how many rules we have. I joined way back in rev 4 when pve was still relatively new and we didn't have nearly as many rules, and to this day I can't recall having read the rules at spawn, at least in one sitting, aside from staff related stuff like checking to see if they're all there when setting up spawn(mind you I'm well acquainted with the rules at this point :P). Why not? Because it's BORING. Really boring. If I'm a new player joining multiplayer I don't want to read 50 signs telling me what I can and can't do, I just want to blocks. While the rulebook is at least a bit better and definitely a step in the right direction, it does still seem to be an issue, because it's 24 pages long. I checked. As a side point I'm very grateful for the recent rewording of a lot of our rules making them a lot stronger and more enforceable(eg don't be a dick rule was removed). I think the best approach is to spell it out ingame using guidelines in as few words as possible while still being helpful and not vague, and have a deposit of rules that can be easily referenced such as easy links to the wiki that goes into greater details of the nuances of each and every rule for added insurance against would-be rule lawyers who try to step around them. While you argue to the contrary, I do feel we need to cover every little possible corner that could be exploited because people will try to exploit them. But that doesn't mean that we have to force otherwise decent players to read 30 paragraphs of text, especially at spawn. As a simple suggestion we could have it link you to the wiki when you type /rulebook as well as giving you an ingame rulebook. Color coordinating the rules is also very effective! I recently went to a server where the rulebook had DO and DON'T for each rule and guideline. The easier and less boring it is to read, the more chances people will read it, which is the first step to following them.

 

I agree that giving someone a 24 page long rule book, and having them run a rule-sign obstacle course gives the wrong impression of the server.  Their first impression should be an impressive build, or something.

 

I think the in-game rule book can just contain extremely simplified versions of the rules, so that people will actually read it.

 

The book doesn't have to say much more than:

  1. No Hacking
  2. Keep Chat Respectful
  3. Don't Break What Isn't Yours
  4. Type "/modreq please flow this" for flowing water
  5. Follow All the Rules on nerd.nu/rules

To be honest, those are really all the rules that a new player needs to know for their first few hours on the server.  Then the rest of the book can contain stuff about what makes the server special and interesting, so that it serves as a "why you should play here" to new players, rather than their first impression of the server being "We have 1,000 rules, follow them all or you're gone!"

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Everyone keeps talking about this "24 page long rule book." How many of you actually read it? (it's 30 pages BTW)

 

The first 2 pages are "welcome, this is S"  stuff.
Then a table of contents for page 3,

and 4 pages of basic game play changes such as extra crafting recipes, mods, and server config settings.

Then the oppressive list of 31 rules, one of which seems to be missing (#9?) which is 7 pages.

The next 4 pages are Tharine's new player guide

2 pages of /LWC commands come next,

followed by 3 pages describing modreqs and how to use them

1 page listing other services/resources of nerd

4 pages listing various commands

And the book ends with 2 pages advertising PvE and C

 

The majority of the book is a helpful resource to players. perhaps we should change the name? Would that help?

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