Revision 22: Mid-Rev Feedback Topic

[buzzie71]

@Silversunset01 - It's less having more long-term than arena events as it is more having some more long-term events that can be completed solo at a noticeably decent pace - similar to NITWITS or the Knights' Quests or the first batch of alien scavenger hunt clues from previous revs.  (I realize I did not obtain the map showing approximate locations of the slime golems, so I don't have much to say on that this rev.)

As for elytra - I would favor a dragon fight more like vanilla, though this rev's implementation is a decent enough difficulty as well (a fight to get unenchanted elytra should at least not be made harder than this).  If a harder fight can be implemented separately for better rewards of some sort (maybe not necessarily better elytra), that would be great to play too I think. 

The randomness of the mining cost, as well as the arbitrariness of the delayed introduction, imo make them a bad choice for cost for an item considered a core part of the game, and I think they should be dropped for elytra - those kinds of costs are better levied on items that are purely cosmetic.

[saberfysh]

On 6/25/2018 at 3:23 PM, Sir_Didymus said:

Hi @saberfysh,

Thanks for participating in our feedback process. You mention that you feel terrain is important when it comes to multiple people cooperating together and building in one area. What do you consider “good terrain” in this context? I’d assume flat open plains would be popular in this regard but then again I have seen some great examples of people making use of rougher terrain in a similar manner. More ocean and more desert have been regular calls during feedback and we’ll definitely be discussing how we can best accommodate everyone - especially with all the 1.13 features incoming.

The current End Dragon fight was designed to be soloable, and that has been achieved by a number of players this revision so far. However, I recognise that not everyone has the experience to do this (I myself am definitely no End Dragon fighter!). Do you support keeping a custom fight of some variety, or would you like to see us return to the vanilla experience in the End? - it’s unlikely both could be accommodated, but that is certainly an interesting idea too.

To @Sir_Didymus,

My opinion on good terrain goes back to the overabundance of mountains. There are towns who have thrived in building hillside ruins, sky islands, or elaborate mountain villages with interconnected bridges and platforms, but this is not the most common type of town created in Minecraft nor in real life. Mountain ranges on Earth have more often served either as defensible fortress locations or as natural barriers between countries, so building directly on them is more an exercise in fantasy than a practical geographical settlement. This does not mean they should be eliminated: mesas with their multicolored layers serve as good scenery, and the mountain side I built next to this rev (+630 +2600) is what inspired the layout and design of my outpost. All I'd like to see is not so many of them, and you'll get a more balanced map with the potential like the Solace-Pumpkinopolis region, which has a large meandering plain mixed in with water and hills, which is both interesting and habitable enough to encourage natural development.

I don't advocate a complete return to vanilla dragon fights, especially if the majority of players find that boring. It might make Elytra too easy to get based on current mechanics. My original suggestion stands.  

Edited June 30, 2018 by saberfysh

[Ruthless]

On 6/25/2018 at 6:08 PM, Silversunset01 said:

Thank you for your response @Ruthless! It seems you are not the only one who has requested the ability to include “air” as an allowed block in world edit for the mapworld. Are there any others that you can think of that are currently not allowed that would be helpful to have?  

We’ve heard a few people ask as well about modifying the dragon fight. Do you have any other ideas for how to make the dragon fight ‘better’ other than removing the blazes and debuffs? Or would you be in favor of returning to a more vanilla battle. If that is the case, how do you feel about the method for obtaining elytra, would a vanilla battle be too easy a trade off?

Unfortunately being able to see your mount while using one of the disguise saddles is a client side issue, our only fix is to allow the /horse-disguise-self command, which only works while you are standing still.

For mapworld I think the only missing blocks that are useful besides air are lava and water, but I understand why those are banned(at least I would assume they are)

For the dragon fight I think that mobs with less flames that are still deadly would be nicer(from a very selfish perspective) because the flames on the ground causes immense lag for me anywhere under 30% hp on the dragon(just from the amounts of blazes). I think that adding a mob(like the wither skeleton archers) or sets of mobs that don't affect the framerate as much would still improve the fight :) vanilla is a quite easy trade off in my opinion and elytra are valued much more highly this rev imo

I knew about the command for horse disguises - but I was hoping for a simple mod to download so I could see them too! ;)

[kumquatmay]

On 6/26/2018 at 8:10 AM, Silversunset01 said:

I wonder if you can elaborate on what you meant by “I went in expecting something pretty different” regarding the mob arena; what were you expecting that would have made the arena better? Its been a while since we’ve had one, and we’re always looking for ways to improve it and make it more enjoyable.

From the information given about the event originally, I had made assumptions about how the event was going to work. The information in the post had said “Those who survive the mobs will be greeted with the following” which sounded to me like multiple people would be able to win the round, so I had a guess that each floor would have something like a timer and everyone who had survived the floor by the end of that timer would be victorious. Using a timer based mob arena could be good to try, in my opinion, as we wouldn’t see a huge amount of mobs being spawned in to kill off players until one person is left, and may feel more like an arena where you need to defend yourself by killing mobs rather than running around the whole time to avoid them.

On 6/26/2018 at 8:10 AM, Silversunset01 said:

The suggestion box has been a complicated process for us. We were finding it hard to have dialogue with users due to the process being so one-sided, often times important information would be missing or users would use it as more of a complaint box than a suggestion box. We would always prefer speaking with players directly as it allows them to fully explain their suggestion far better than a 250-character message, as well as gives us the opportunity to ask questions or provide clarification. While we didn’t want to cut off that line of communication entirely it became clear we needed to find a better method. That being said, we’re open to new ways of handling them if you’ve got any ideas to share.

Is the current suggestion box meant to be an intermediate solution or a permanent one? It feels even less than one sided currently since people submitting suggestions don’t really get any feedback. I understand speaking with players directly gives more details on their ideas, but another point of the suggestion box was for some anonymity for users.

I think what was a bit detrimental to the suggestion box was the change from replying to them monthly to every couple of days. To me it seems like this would give you guys less time to think on and consider suggestions, and maybe not enough time to enact changes before people were submitting more suggestions in response (as we saw with the Elytra this revision). Had the response time for suggestions been, for example, ~2 weeks or so it would have been easier to group batches of similar suggestions together to respond to as a whole, and also given more time to consider or act on any of the suggestions.

As for a new way of handling the suggestion box, I think increasing the time between responding to suggestions could help, maybe not monthly like it used to be but maybe every 2 weeks or so. Also for suggestions that have been generating multiple suggestions in response to it or you would like more feedback and details on, perhaps a post on the forums could be created to get more opinions and open up more discussion.

On 6/26/2018 at 8:10 AM, Silversunset01 said:

One last bit regarding mapworld: //move <#> <direction> is an available command, and works as a cut/paste would work. Personally I’m not sure which items specifically are allowed or not, but it does seem there is some documentation regarding that which we can certainly review for the next rev.

For the specific scenario I talked about I’m not sure that would work :P (I don’t think you’d be able to //move something into a whole other plot), again //cut would just be a QOL improvement. I’m not sure of which items are or aren’t allowed either, I just know that air would be very helpful.

[robr]

The Spawn Building

·         I think spawn was nice, interesting to explore although as Troop brought up earlier, the museum was heavily slanted towards the last couple revs. In the future if such a plan is in place it would be nice to predetermine size and open up the submissions to a wider audience.

·         I am still a large fan of the forced rule path to get out of initial spawn. This used to be consistent, is still something I’ve seen on other servers as well.  Yes, people may not always read them, but we shouldn’t be hiding it from those that do. If someone has to run around a couple corners to ignore the rule so be it, we never had a problem with people getting out before.  Hide a warp sign among the text if those extra 10 seconds are really that irritating for people who have come back after initial spawn. At least then we’d know they read that far.

·         It was great having a rail station again, however it felt hidden below spawn and the approaches down below seemed a bit unintuitive and as a result the incoming lines are a bit messy as things coming in from various directions couldn’t easily get to the various lines without curving around or over various existing lines. N/W/S/E needs to be a bit more defined in approach, possibly with some pre-stated assumptions of right away to prevent someone from building something else in the natural rail paths.

The Overworld Map

·         Map size still felt a bit large, I think we could stand to go down to something similar to rev12 (4k*4k), possibly with some sort of mid rev expansion

·         Haven’t really played much with 1.13 to comment, probably fine for overworld though.

·         How do you feel about the current overworld map size? Too small, too large, just right?

·         Diamond seemed a bit light, but as we mostly exploit fairly trade with villagers this was more of an issue for other diamond uses..

The Nether Map

·         The vanilla nether really is boring, I think we should stick to custom as much as we can.

·         There really needs to be an inherent / auto-claim buffer around portals on the nether side so the towns can develop them without having to deal with establishing claims and other users that have decided to put holes in the area and such.

·         Quartz seemed harder to find – more akin to the type of generation we’d see of it in the overworld than typical nether distributions..

·         A more defined netherspawn, possibly a dark mirror of overworld, but protected with any custom baddies captured for reference like we have now.

The End

·         Honestly, I’ve just avoided the end largely this rev.  I hate that with the introduction of dragon respawning an entire dimension that used to house builds has been reduced to the same, round Live, Die, Repeat arena and the outer islands largely get ignored since the portals either don’t have anything built up to them or spawn outside the map boundaries and are useless.

·         I’m onboard with the dragon fight being harder, but at the same time it needs to be balanced so that it’s not too laggy on users with crappy computers, and that people can’t just log off en masse and have moblimiter do all the work for them.  If we could have some sort of mob progression as the dragon takes damage, ala most MMO’s, that might be better.. whether custom mobs or just increasingly difficult vanilla mobs (say some withers or something)

Mapworld

·         I haven’t played with mapworld other than to look in awe at some of the creations, but I think it’s great we’re bringing back old ones as well. Honestly I think the WE perms should at a minimum mimic whatever we have on the creative server, particularly since the world has a specific stated function. If anything it’d be great if we had some sort of method to import schematics.

Portals

·         I like the staggered release, but feel that it needs to be over a shorter amount of time and any initial portals not discovered in the first week should immediately start having clues put out.

·         It might be fun to spread the hunt out between the overworld and the nether however (predetermine the locations, but don’t necessarily have all the markers in the overworld – have a few in the nether that could be discovered and then noted you have to put the overworld within X radius of whatever the predetermined point was)

Iron Golem Spawners

·         I don’t mind the tiered system, but think that you should be able to upgrade a single spawner in lieu of having to have 4 and then do them all at the same time. Maybe I misunderstood how that works, but there’s something to be said for areas that may just want a smaller grinder..

Custom Spawners

·         I think on a multiplayer server, particularly one with modified mob mechanics for lag prevention like we do, it’s a necessity.

·         Squid, Slime, Witch, Shulker.  I think Creeper is too overpowered, plus there never seems to be shortage of creepers on the map and with a Witch it can be redundant.  I might suggest putting the Shulker spawners in the end to encourage development of the end islands.

·         I don’t see the need for custom spawners in the nether – dangerous things spawn enough there.. the only possible exception I might consider would be for ghasts, but they don’t seem to be enough in demand that it couldn’t be better addressed with a custom trade for tears instead.

Custom Drops from Ore (Fossils and Rares)

·         I haven’t actually traded any of these in yet, but I think it’s been a neat addition to otherwise boring mining activities.

Custom Saddles

·         I think they’re a hoot. Wish we could see them on our end. Keep ‘em.

Elytra

·         The only way a “vanilla” elytra distribution would work is if we didn’t have any world border on the End or regenerated it every night on a different seed. Neither of these seem particularly realistic for a server of our size

·         I still don’t disagree with a small delay before availability, possibly shorter than the 6 weeks we did this time – maybe pin it to the community mapping effort so when we get the live map, we get elytra.

·         I don’t think it should be farmable. It’s meant to be an end game item, a harder end dragon helps with this, but whatever changes we make need to not be like it was before when you could spawn a thousand dragons one after another to just generate more.

·         Strictly from a road/rail support aspect, I think it should be made clear by the admins ahead of time that if you’re building along the cardinals you are expected to incorporate the roads the community are working on out the directions from spawn or not force a major reroute or block.

Events

Possible future event: “give robr WE day” .. a day where things can happen like I can quickly finish my projects and maybe help other people with theirs too (maybe, //replace air lava might also occur)… just a suggestion..

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by robr
repasted because of symbolists.

[Guest Former Staff]

Hello again @defiex Thank you for returning to complete your feedback, we’ve taken a read through and have a few comments!

I do note that you’ve made a few comments on how elytra users are dirty, yet I see no solutions from you to provide more hand washing stations!

It’s very helpful to hear your thoughts on these remaining sections of the feedback topic, both in areas where you are in agreement with others and not.

Within the event feedback, you did say that you enjoyed working with Rose for the Slime Golems but also that you’d like to see more single player events. With most of the events this rev, we’ve tried to make them available for single players but also keep them open to groups of people playing through if they choose!

[ieuweh]

Hey @Herr_Fawkes! I am personally a big fan of embassies, and I agree it would be an approachable way to introduce new players to the server’s current towns! We will have to see how these ideas could fit within our plans for next Revision… lots of fun food for thought for sure, thank you!

We really appreciate your encouraging words about custom mobs and drops, I am happy you have been enjoying the experience so far! Other players have suggested improvements for next rev, which might end up fulfilling your wishes or not… who knows! We will review your ideas carefully too.

Regarding Elytra, we have learnt a lot from the changes that have been implemented this Revision, both from people unhappy and happy with them. Interestingly though, there hasn’t been a noticeable increase in overall ground infrastructures such as roads and rails since last Revision, despite the delay and the increase in difficulty in obtaining elytra. It only seems to have made the task more tiresome and frustrating to some of our most productive road and rail builders that consider it an essential tool to cover distances now that the map is considerably larger than before.

Your interest in a smaller map seems to echo many others, and it does sound appetizing, but we will consider all the pros and cons during our rev preparation meetings before we make a final decision about it.

[ieuweh]

Hey @torteela!

Thank you for expanding on your concerns about the dragon fight! Alongside the nether custom mobs, it seems to be one of the features that could have some *takes scissors from pocket* snips snips polishing here and there!

I agree that diamonds have lost their original value since the introduction of mending, but there are a lot of players that seem to enjoy using them to obtain player skulls for decoration instead, so we might have a fun use for them after all. I found your idea interesting though, and now that the phantom membrane is going to be introduced with the new update, we will definitely have to review how it affects elytra for the next Revision.

Off the record: Please, teach me your mending tricks! I am mining a 3x5 tunnel from -3000 to 3000 (x) and I have had to go repair 5 diamond pickaxes with unbreaking III and mending and I am not even halfway through my tunnel yet.

[ieuweh]

Haha, don’t worry @PPGOME! I know that slip came from a place of profound excitement for the new Revision. Thank you for getting back to us! We will have to experiment with the phantom membranes and mending before we reach a conclusion.

[ieuweh]

Hi @teli_pinkerton! This revision we have started to diversify the ways people can obtain the Fragments of Amber required to trade for an elytra, from mining to participating in various events, to hopefully appeal to different players, but the dragon fight itself seems to be an important component in the recipe which we intend to keep. It is encouraging to hear that you found the custom fight balanced. We will continue to carefully review all the feedback to narrow down any kind of improvements it might need for next Revision. Thank you for sharing your thoughts about it with us!

[Guest Former Staff]

Hello @Trooprm32, thank you for taking the time to hand write your notes!

With regards to the spawn building itself, I do want to make you aware of some changes that we made in response to the early rev survey, which was to include signs just underneath the spawn point which include the rules, information and useful tips. New logins are immediately greeted with signs encouraging them to jump down and read through, to which a large number of people take the time to view.

I see you’ve raised concerns that the diversity of exhibits on display was not broad enough, you claim that half of the exhibits were from just the past two or three revisions. This is not the case. While you were also welcome to participate during the staff spawn sprucing and add something more historical, I’ve put together a list of all the exhibits that feature from a revision-specific time period and encourage you to take another browse around as around 68% of the revision-specific exhibits are from revs 17 or prior.

Spoiler

 

Rev 17 or prior:

1. The dirtening.
2. The seed.
3. R.E.G.E. Sponge Core.
4. Pumpkinopolis.
5. PI in the park *Faraway*
6. Uberproject pillar.
7. Horsegoth's Horse Culling Station.
8. Lord Molon's Throne.
9. Hyrule dragon head.
10. Ambrosia monument.
11. Rev 3 castle entryway.
12. Great animal massacre of rev 6.
13. Tellico Towers.
14. Anubis Statue.
15. Wellspring Logo.
16. Rose city origins.
17. Arboria pixel art.
18. Baktun stairs.
19. Cobblesaurus Rex.
20. Amber Waves of Grain.
21. Restored statue.
22. Flamingo.
23. Vinhaven Flag.
24. Catsenberg horse.
25. Leafpocalypse.
26. Metal Mountains Logo.
27. Lion statue.
28. CARBON monument.
29. Treep from Two Lips.
30. Uberburger.
31. Argoth Tea Party.
32. Bromgoth War monument.
33. Bromgoth war missile.

Rev 18:

1. Long Lake's Pier.

Rev 19:

1. Talon from Big Blue.
2. Lion teeth (Tic & Ice's fireworks).

Rev 20:

1. Lazuli Shores food truck.
2. Pico / Winged Sun Symbol.
3. Clucky.

Rev 21:

1. Haven guardian.
2. Rainbow Castle.
3. Zombie apocalpyse.
4. Nether giraffe.
5. Pico / Skull.
6. Venlantis.
7. Stonemist statue.
8. Avalon statue.

Rev 22:

1. The torchening.

 

1.  

Unlike last revision, we do seem to be hearing more feedback in support of a reduced map size. I do agree with your thoughts on having a more densely packed community than we currently have, particularly since the community is one of the main strengths of the server. I recall from your prior feedback that 6k x 6k was something that worked after many revs of trial and error, so maybe this could be a good number to first consider.

For the quartz distribution in the nether, most of the ores were packed in quantities within the ground itself so I’d recommend digging within to acquire more quartz than may appear on the surface.

Feedback that people wanted a large map to remain but that people also wanted to have areas of the map that felt like a wilderness. In regards to the South East corner, there were two portals available from the 7th portal being released… one of the original six portals just took quite some time to find, despite being on the livemap. :-P

We’ve experimented with custom spawners a bit over the past few revs, in particular with this current revision. We heard feedback that having the creeper spawner available was too generous but also that it allows people who use elytra to travel. Our compromise was a delayed release through an event. Congratulations again on your a-maze-ing persistence at winning the creeper spawner!

I’m glad to hear that you enjoyed the custom drops from ore! The process to determine the drop rates underwent several hours of discussions, spreadsheets and early tweaks. If we continue a similar system in future, we can certainly look to optimising the drops more and because we have data on the acquisition of these drops now, we might be able to have all of the items available at once to trade as opposed to staggered releases.

Here we are, elytra. I completely agree with you that this is a very hot topic. When forming this revision, we relied on a lot of prior feedback which swung in the majority for taking risks and making changes. Since the start of the current revision, the many individuals who enjoy elytra voiced their feedback and have changed my mind on the elytra approach. The vanilla approach is certainly not balanced for the multiplayer experience (particularly as you point out, having elytra available for the first who get into the end), however I am now of the opinion that we should largely try to leave the game balancing to the creators of the game.

Roads and rails haven’t seen a huge public project since around the introduction of elytra but that seems to be a reflection more on members of our community who lead such projects going inactive and no-one filling that void. What we have seen this rev with elytra changes, and last rev with the traditional elytra experience is that people are building roads and rails just as much either way.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Barlimore
Included image.

[Guest Former Staff]

Hello again @buzzie71! Thank you for your additional feedback here. We have been working on an event for a few weeks now which will be an event that can be completed either solo or with friends so hopefully as the details for that are announced, they will be more in the neighbourhood of what you’re asking for.

Having two versions of the dragon fight is something we considered going into the current revision and could certainly be an interesting balance for those seeking the vanilla experience and those wanting a different challenge. If there were to be an enhanced dragon fight, what would you like to see from it in terms of gameplay and mechanics?

On the custom ore drops, I do want to clarify that we had a delayed release of each set of items as we were observing the collective drops that were happening and were deciding on the appropriate costs as we were getting more data. If a similar system were to be reused in future, ideally for cosmetic-only items as you and many other people have suggested, then with the data we’ve acquired now, we should be able to release all at once.

[Guest Former Staff]

Hello @saberfysh! Thank you for your continued feedback!

The abundance of certain geographical features, such as mountains as you’ve described can feel a bit overused at times. With maps this large, and being somewhat at the mercy of the terrain generator, we have been more likely to see these geographical features appear. While of course this is great news for the likes of Metal Mountains… it may not be everyone’s cup of tea.

Our aim for the current map was to limit the oceans and return to a greater volume of landmass, as inspired by the likes of Revision 12. Some of our more recent maps had been a little too overbearing with oceans but going forward with Revision 23 and the 1.13 Aquatic Update, it seems there may be a thirst for more diverse biomes, particularly where the ocean is concerned.

On the subject of dragon fights, one idea put forward by other individuals would be to have two versions of the dragon fight available. One which is the vanilla experience and another which has been enhanced somehow. How would this sit with you if implemented and what would you like to see from the gameplay and mechanics of an enhanced dragon fight?

[ieuweh]

Hey @SilentRecon! Thank you for adding more thoughts to the nether discussion!

During last Revision’s Mid-Rev Feedback, the overwhelming majority wanted, or was in favor of, a player built Nether Spawn, which is what was implemented for this revision. Right now, it is as safe as players make it out to be, but we have noticed that the lack of planning or having someone taking the lead has resulted in the issues you have experienced. If anyone wants to take this task upon themselves, such as adding stables and cauldrons for the horses, improving the custom mob displays (might be necessary to request help from the Padmins to move them to a better gallery), and so forth, feel free to do so!

As for improving the custom mobs themselves, if after reviewing all the feedback we conclude that they are a welcome non-vanilla addition to the server, we will consider making some changes to improve the experience both for older and newer players :)

[Guest Former Staff]

Thank you for returning with more feedback @kumquatmay!

I think your vision of the mob arenas could be worth exploring, for at least some floors in future. We may have to do some testing to find the right balance of mobs vs people and the right combination of mobs to make this a reasonable challenge!

Your suggestion box feedback is very interesting and I appreciate that you’re providing some alternative solutions for us to consider, definitely food for thought!

[ieuweh]

@Ruthlessssss! Thank you for pointing out the lack of refreshments and hot beverages in Map World. I have noticed the same thing! Now that I think of it, also cobwebs… as the Map World Official Ambassador (shhhh) we will review the available blocks and commands for next revision for sure! (please?)

As for the dragon fight, we will continue to review its mechanics to hopefully improve the experience for everyone, be it for selfish reasons or not ;)

[ieuweh]

@robr!! I agree, it would have been nice to have more artifacts from older revisions at spawn. I'm sure there are a million great memories we could include from so many revisions that have gone before! Moderators added things that were special to them, but not all our longstanding team members managed to find time to add something - though I did try my best to represent historical areas by looking through the wiki and exploring a lot of old maps! No building can hold all the wonderful times we have all had on P, but I think that in the end we got a lovely reflection of lots of different areas of the server and it turned out very well. If we do something like this again, we will definitely continue to advertise when staff members can help with spawn building, so you don't miss out!

There was some experimentation around the rules at Spawn, but many seem to agree that the usual board with signs works the best.

Oh no! How were you mining for quartz? I could find plenty of it by branch mining underground and inside the Didy-tentacles :3

You are not alone inquiring about iron grinders! More people have brought up the wish to be able to upgrade one spawner alone, and this is something that we will discuss once the preparation for the next revision starts!

We appreciate your detailed suggestions specifically related to the dragon fight and elytra. These are area which we plan to improve upon for Revision 23. Thank you for sharing your feedback with us!

[ttsci]

The Spawn Building

• I like the decorations and spawn design overall.

• I thought the layout was reasonable once modified. I did not like the original layout with the portals due to how it would spit you out randomly and oftentimes separate from your horse. 

• The changes to the spawn building were 1000% better and fixed any complaints I might have had about the original design.

• N/A regarding different changes

The Overworld Map

• Size-wise I think we're fine. No need to go larger, everything seems reasonably spaced out. I'd be a little concerned if we go too small that we risk running into resource issues over the span of a revision. If we ever plan a shorter rev I think a smaller map would be alright, but I'd be hesitant to go much smaller without more thought being put into how fast resources run out.

• Vanilla map is fine, no complaints

• N/A

• I wasn't a huge fan of smaller diamond deposits this revision. I'd prefer a return to normal size even if they were perhaps less frequently-occurring.

The Nether Map

• I enjoyed the map.

• Since we're going with a regular vanilla map for the overworld, I think it might be nice to have a 100% vanilla experience in the Nether as well.

• ...with the above said, I liked that some of the less abundant resources were placed in the Nether such as sand, gravel, concrete powder, etc. Wouldn't mind seeing that even if we go with an otherwise-vanilla map.

• No issues with resource distribution in the nether.

• I think the Nether mobs are a great addition, with two caveats: One, they can make things difficult for new players who we typically tell "use the nether to get out into the wilderness quickly!" Two, the fact that there isn't as much gained gameplay-wise from killing them; I would like if maybe they dropped items that tied into a quest or trades or something.

The End

• I think we can be flexible and play around with the dragon fight a little more. The way the dragon fight was done this time should make it pretty easy to configure in different ways; we could theoretically have a different dragon fight every week if we wanted.

• Have rarely used the end at all, so no issues once the lag issue with the dragon fight was figured out.

Mapworld

• I do not use mapworld so I have no comments here.

Portals

• While I understand the probable intent behind the portal rollout being slow this revision being to keep content throughout the revision, I think this really missed the mark when understanding player motivations. People want portals to build a town around, primarily, and by keeping them held back, you ensure that people will settle elsewhere - nobody is going to move their town just to relocate to a portal four weeks later, so that just ensures that portals won't be in the middle of an active town. The fact that the second portal went over six weeks with no discovery and few people hunting for it points to the fact that once people are settled, they generally don't care as much. Portals at the start of a revision encourage people to spread out; they provide a gathering point to settle around and something to search for early on. By only releasing six - and having four of those six be in the East/Northeast - players are discouraged from exploring further and towns tend to just drop “wherever” instead. This turns into a feedback loop where now that players are settled, the only way portals can be placed somewhere they will be used means dropping them near existing towns or settlements, which is in turn unfair to players who might have had a chance at finding a portal at revision start.

• One of the other major issues with the portals being released the way they were this time is that the lack of Elytra made early-revision travel extremely punishing due to the lack of portals. I did not enjoy this aspect at all.

• I think it's worth considering whether we can offer more/user-created portals. I have discussed this with pez from a technical perspective and think it is feasible, would be happy to elaborate more on this later.

• Amount was fine, distribution was not great with so many in the northeast. Cardinal directions to start should probably be a minimum.

Iron Golem Spawners

• N/A didn't really build anything like this, just gave people my golem souls

Custom Spawners

• Custom spawners are great but I think it makes the most sense to keep them in the overworld. I thinking mixing how they are distributed (found at rev start, awarded from events, etc) is helpful as well.

• Creeper/shulker spawners are undoubtedly the most important. 

Custom Drops from Ore (Fossils and Rares)

• Custom drops are great, would love to see something like this continue. 

• Drop rate seemed oddly hit or miss for me - had very little luck early on, a few months later I got quite a bit.

• I would love to see additional decorative items on offer, especially with the fact that custom drops effectively give us a lot of flexibility to set prices in a fair way.

Custom Saddles

• Custom saddles are neat, would like to see both options of acquiring them.

Elytra

• One of the main reasons why people have disliked the Elytra decisions this revision is because the incentives have been counterproductive. There was no reason given in the official revision information post about the removal of Elytra, but the most commonly-floated explanation I’ve seen has been that it was intended to “promote development of infrastructure”, i.e. roads and rails. However, the way the Elytra system was implemented is completely counter to this premise. Players who invested their time this revision building road and/or rail systems have now found themselves at a significant disadvantage when it comes to obtaining proper, functional Elytra because of the lack of time spent mining. It felt like something of an insult to have invested time in building a large road network with zero payoff, whereas people who spent their time mining instead are now the first in line to reap rewards.

• Here's my proposal: Elytra are now craftable again, but with a major caveat: the key ingredients are missing. Whether it’s enchanted Dragon Wing leather or a familiar Essence of Flight, none of the four (or more) components that can be crafted into an Elytra will drop from Day One of a revision. Instead, players can increase their odds of achieving these rare drops by contributing to the construction of the Cardinal Roads. Upon completion of a road stretching from spawn to the deepest wilderness, one of the four key ingredients for the Elytra will have its drop rate increased from zero percent to a small value. This means that before it is possible for anyone to obtain an Elytra, all four Cardinal Roads must be completed. This incentivizes teamwork and community build projects, because it rewards all players for accomplishing a milestone that in turn benefits all players. In order to ensure that things are fair to all, currently-existing Elytra will have been removed from the End much as they have been in this revision.

• The benefits of this proposal:

  • Guarantees the development of key infrastructure
  • Rewards all players evenly
  • Encourages participation: the more people working together, the faster drops unlock
  • Retains an element of randomness by unlocking drops rather than offering a direct reward
  • Provides a concrete, achievable goal to work towards (“complete the roads!”) instead of an arbitrary deadline players can not engage with (“wait six weeks”)
  • Increases the odds that players will then branch off the main roads and create paths to their towns
  • Expansible: development of the intercardinal (NE/NW/SE/SW) roads could offer an additional boost to drop chance
  • Can be tied in with Livemap unlock (e.g. drops unlock, but crafting recipe not added until after livemap)
     
• Ultimately I feel that it's not a good idea to try and mandate how people travel around the server and instead we'll be more successful by encouraging people to contribute to community projects rather than punishing them by taking away an ability that many enjoy.

Rails

Similarly to the Elytra/road proposals, I would like to offer another proposal for rails.

• Just like with roads, I feel that there are ways we can properly incentivize rail building in a way that doesn’t hurt other players. To that end, at the beginning of a revision between two to four dilapidated rail stations or stationmasters’ offices are hidden in the wilderness. Upon discovering the structures, players will then be challenged to restore their station, modifying or beautifying it as they see fit, and then connect to a preexisting rail line at spawn. Upon completion of the spawn connection, they will then be permitted to place a portal within a reasonable distance (~150 blocks) of their restored station. These portals would replace or supplement the normal cardinal portals as necessary. As a caveat, these portals would not be tradeable in order to prevent players from “sitting on” the more easily-located stations in hopes of trading for a portal later.
• 
•  
• Note that for this idea, it is possible to change a building’s base structure (that is, not brick) to better suit a town’s theme. The images above are intended only to illustrate the concept.
• The benefits of this proposal:
  • Guarantees rail construction to/from spawn of at least two to four major rail lines, all of which connect to a portal
  • Rewards players who wish to put in the effort to build rails by allowing them to secure a portal to build a town around in exchange for their work
  • Encourages formation of communities around at least two to four major hubs
  • Changes up the usual “hunt for portal” formula by securing the portal itself early on, but deferring its lighting until after rail lines are complete, which encourages development of rails in addition to roads and portals
  • Provides a concrete goal for players who are interested in rail-focused builds as well as an area that will be well-traveled
  • Offers “flavor” benefits - theming of these builds can be adjusted to match the theme of a revision
  • Gives players something new to search for that serves a purpose, not just a pre-generated structure to loot and abandon

Events

• Slime Golems event was probably closest to my favorite this revision.

• I would literally punch a rabbit (looking at you ice) to get NITWITS going again.

[I_c_e_]

16 hours ago, ttsci said:

I would literally punch a rabbit (looking at you ice) to get NITWITS going again

I would literally punch YOU to get the NITWITS going again - minus 2 melons 

[I_c_e_]

On 6/25/2018 at 6:17 PM, Sir_Didymus said:

Hi @I_c_e_,

Thanks for participating in this feedback process! I’m really looking forward to seeing a 1.13 PvE revision too - just from running various tests and experiments ready for rev prep, I have already become obsessed with collecting fish… Not sure I’m looking forward to the new enemy mobs though!

I’m glad you enjoyed the rainbow caves in the nether - they were my favourite bit to make as well! I hope you didn’t ride around for too long - perhaps you got hypnotised by the colours.

Do you have any ideas about different ways to implement the dragon fight? Would you prefer it was a regular vanilla fight, or a different custom one?

Your feedback on elytra echoes many other people in this thread and we will definitely be reviewing its implementation for the upcoming revision. Do you have any preference on how elytra should be acquired on a multiplayer server? And do you agree with the assertion that having or not having elytra has little negative effect on other forms of transportation? - as we have also seen mentioned a few times this revision and elsewhere in this feedback topic.

Hey Didy :) 

Yeah i love the fish collecting too and hope the water bug is fixed soon so i can make a living Aquarium !

As for the dragon fight: It literally scares the crap outta me but i do agree with torteela that when the Dragon dies his minions should evaporate with him and not left to seek their revenge. 

I do think the wait on elytra had little to no effect on roads or rails. I have encountered many half done and unfinished road/rail projects as I always have in previous revs. I also agree that the ones who did put their energy into getting roads and rails up were totally left unprepared for the cost of elytra since they had focused on infrastructure and not mining. 

I know keeping the game fair for everyone is difficult, no matter what your decisions are someone will not be happy. As a complete nerd i will quote star trek, "  Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one "  

When the game stops being fun and becomes more like the life we want to escape from : Bickering, Bulling, Power Struggles, Stress .. We will stop playing and the community we have worked hard to have will die and that's when the tragedy will happen. 

( and is it bad that I ate all the bacon as i wrote this and saved tic none ??? )

[ieuweh]

@I_c_e_ Tulio disapproves the bacon eating but I will not tell him nor tict0c :0 is a sekrit between us...

[Sir_Didymus]

We're going to close this topic now and focus on our Revision 23 preparations. Please note that any feedback given hereafter (through any medium) may not be taken into account for next revision, though it still valuable for more distant revisions after that. Thank you to everybody who has taken the time to give feedback here, on the subreddit, and in game.

The current revision will run until at least September, so there is no need to panic - this is the "mid-rev" feedback thread after all! Plenty of time left, and plenty more events still to come!

[Herr_Fawkes]

On 6/30/2018 at 3:37 PM, ieuweh said:

Hey @Herr_Fawkes! I am personally a big fan of embassies, and I agree it would be an approachable way to introduce new players to the server’s current towns! We will have to see how these ideas could fit within our plans for next Revision… lots of fun food for thought for sure, thank you!

We really appreciate your encouraging words about custom mobs and drops, I am happy you have been enjoying the experience so far! Other players have suggested improvements for next rev, which might end up fulfilling your wishes or not… who knows! We will review your ideas carefully too.

Regarding Elytra, we have learnt a lot from the changes that have been implemented this Revision, both from people unhappy and happy with them. Interestingly though, there hasn’t been a noticeable increase in overall ground infrastructures such as roads and rails since last Revision, despite the delay and the increase in difficulty in obtaining elytra. It only seems to have made the task more tiresome and frustrating to some of our most productive road and rail builders that consider it an essential tool to cover distances now that the map is considerably larger than before.

Your interest in a smaller map seems to echo many others, and it does sound appetizing, but we will consider all the pros and cons during our rev preparation meetings before we make a final decision about it.

Regarding custom mobs, I'm looking forward to what you think up. It'll be a fun surprise whatever it is. 

On road/rail development since last rev- this may well be true, though I'd like to see the metrics you use to determine that this rev's developments aren't any bigger than last rev's. I'd also point out that elytra was harder to get last rev than it was in revision 20, and we saw a huge uptick in rail/road development. I won't say that making elytra harder to get was the only reason this happened, but I think increased difficulty was a factor. If the development rate/amount hasn't changed, then that's a sign that revision 21's rules were about right for stimulating development. I would say that the gold/iron ore was just right for rails this rev, and I hope that this rev's ore spawnrates are kept, or at least not modified in a negative way. Keeping diamonds rare is a good idea as well.

Regarding the smaller map, I would point out that revision 16, which had a very small map compared to 14 and 15, was very well developed and enjoyable. Distances didn't feel too overwhelming, and it was possible to ride around and enjoy oneself without losing a sense of scale and grandeur. 

Also, I would seriously consider allowing horses to pass their stats on to their offspring when bred. It's disappointing and off-putting to level up a horse, only to be unable to pass its traits down to other horses you breed. 

To conclude, thanks for all you and the other admins do! The game doesn't run without you, and I'm glad that you're so willing to discuss players' thoughts. 

 

 

[ieuweh]

Sadly I wasn't present to witness rev's 20 rail and roads development, so I was careful to not comment about that in my response, but I used the data available in deadmap as a tool to compare the infrastructure development between this revision and the last one. The number of lines between settlements and density doesn't seem to be noticeably better, at least not on par with what was expected after implementing a delay in obtaining elytra. But I think we are very close to reach a healthy resolution and we have definitely found, as you point out, some very good tweaks to boost rail production.

2 hours ago, Herr_Fawkes said:

To conclude, thanks for all you and the other admins do! The game doesn't run without you, and I'm glad that you're so willing to discuss players' thoughts. 

Thank you so much Herr_Fawkes! The server doesn't run without us all, including you and the entire community, and we truly appreciate and welcome your feedback on how things could become better for everyone.

[Herr_Fawkes]

1 hour ago, ieuweh said:

I used the data available in deadmap as a tool to compare the infrastructure development between this revision and the last one.

Ah, makes sense. If I remember right, a good portion of the rail (particularly surface rail) that got set up last revision was done pretty far into the rev, while this time around it seems that rail is front-loaded. Thus, we may be seeing an effect of delaying elytra in that, when they're delayed, roads/rails are built up quickly and then not touched once wings become a thing. I wonder if we've got copies of the old rules for elytra somewhere so we can compare them with deadmaps and player counts over time, if those are available. This is good to know going forward, and I'm glad you brought up the point.