PvP discussion

[shanty_sniper]

i feel that nerd.nu can and should facilitate more in PvP within the game, the survival server is gone and wont be coming back its as simple as that, unfortunatly.. i want people to discuss the possibility of reviewing the rules of PVP on PvE, one example would be the size of PvP regions? if we want more active members in our community i think we have to look at what can be done to become more appealing to those who would be more inclined for that game style, I for one would love to see a town on P that will have a PVP region but this comes with scenarios that would need to be thought about. and ideas of your own or concerns then raise those points! lets discuss!

[JKayani]

I also miss survival

[shanty_sniper]

good to see the nerd community is still just as engaged with forum posts! seriously guys big time disappointed with the lack of input..

[Herr_Fawkes]

PvP has died the past few times we've tried to implement it. Speaking for myself, I don't think the server resources and moderator time necessary to run a server that gets as little use as PvP did the last time it was brought back is worth it when we can use our resources better elsewhere. 

[smdavis93]

I don't know much about the restrictions on PVP zones on the PVE server, but, I know I would play more if we were able to have a town that is an entire PVP region, or something similar. I would assume it would need to be made clear that it is a PVP region, and non-accessible unless you are made aware of that.  I feel it would add a new dynamic to the server and make it more appealing for players like myself who prefer PVP, and a new dynamic that could attract more players new and old.  Although I have not been in-game much, I have, however, been noticing the declining player base over time on PVE.  It seems to me as though it is following the same path Survival did which ultimately lead to it being closed.

[tobylane]

I want to see PVP arenas under the current rules before supporting changes. Can you demonstrate what is lacking? If there's nothing to show it may look like all that is lacking is player interest.

http://redditpublic.com/carto/pve/p17/carto/#/429/64/2440/-1/0/0 was the previous effort.

[schererererer]

On 3/15/2018 at 4:36 PM, smdavis93 said:

I don't know much about the restrictions on PVP zones on the PVE server, but, I know I would play more if we were able to have a town that is an entire PVP region, or something similar. I would assume it would need to be made clear that it is a PVP region, and non-accessible unless you are made aware of that.  I feel it would add a new dynamic to the server and make it more appealing for players like myself who prefer PVP, and a new dynamic that could attract more players new and old.  Although I have not been in-game much, I have, however, been noticing the declining player base over time on PVE.  It seems to me as though it is following the same path Survival did which ultimately lead to it being closed.

Currently, pvp zones on the pve server must be fully enclosed (with the possibility of barrier blocks for open-air arenas), with iron doors as entry points, and can be at most 100x100 in size with height constrained by what is enclosed by the build (multiple such regions cannot be combined). Under the current rules, one could make a town that's basically a City Block from Judge Dredd to maximize the pvp volume, or even two or more such Blocks with no-pvp buffer zones between them at padmin discretion. Smaller, more two dimensional versions of pvp towns have been done in the past but each time failed to really get off the ground.

The reason for the pvp limitations on the pve server (which were greater constraints in the past, and imposed by the decision of head admins and sadmins) was a fear that availability of pvp on p.nerd.nu would divert too many players from s.nerd.nu and cannibalize the latter's playerbase. Given that survival no longer exists, I believe that p.nerd.nu could accommodate a greatly expanded pvp experience, while still retaining the traditional pve experience for those who have no wish to partake in pvp. This last point gets at the crux of the problem - introducing pvp cannot force pve-exclusive players to participate, but then it's difficult to provide incentives for pvp outside the constraints of arenas unless a critical mass of pvp'ers choose to engage (which is the general problem that s.nerd.nu faced in its decline and later attempted reboots - plenty of people said they'd play regularly again if S was brought back but not enough of them followed through, due to various factors from loss of interest to insufficient advertising).

With its large map size and great swathes of unclaimed land, I think the pve server could stand to increase the maximum size of pvp regions, as decided as appropriate by padmins. A bit more technical change that could increase immersion and allow for more natural pvp towns or zones than the current big-box-of-death-paradigm would be a gradual transition from pve -> warning zone -> pvp area (with corresponding cooldowns on pve status to prevent border straddling exploits).

[ttsci]

I go back and forth on this a lot because I personally do not care for PvP and never enjoyed playing on S, but what I keep coming back to is that I think that fundamentally, Shanty has a point and that there is more than can be done to facilitate PvP gameplay for those who like it without destroying the ability of others to have fun with PvE-style survival.

What I would like to see is, on a trial basis, the rules for PvP regions to be relaxed for a revision. Allow anyone interested in joining a PvP-enabled town to collaboratively build a wall enclosing the town area of a decent size - something like 250x250 or 300x300 (or honestly, even larger - we have a huge map). If necessary, make it a double wall with a buffer zone and a region welcome message warning that passing through the second wall enables PvP. Post all the current signage. Since we're already using barrier blocks for PvP areas, close off the town from the top of the wall using barrier blocks to ensure someone doesn't accidentally Elytra into the town. Then turn on the PvP and see how much use it gets and if people enjoy it.

With the players doing most of the construction, I don't think this imposes any undue burden upon staff. With the signs and barrier blocks, there's no change of someone accidentally wandering in. And importantly, the segment of the playerbase who enjoys PvP can enjoy it all the time, not just by scheduling a meetup at one of the arenas. One of the factors that I think current PvP arenas are missing, and why they aren't currently very popular, is that when you're playing on a server like S, an attack can come at any time and so you must constantly be prepared. It changes the way you play. On the other hand, going to a PvP arena, you're got a very limited danger window and can solely focus on the combat, which can be fun but is a different experience. What I believe the folks who enjoy PvP feel like they're missing - and can't get from arenas in their current form - is that feeling of constant threat. A PvP town would allow them to experience this and still have fun in the PvE environment.

I feel that we've gone a little too far at times in trying to regulate how other people have fun on the server, whether it's by nerfing Elytra or setting strict rules on PvP areas. Ultimately, it doesn't affect my gameplay experience if someone else wants to zip around with rockets or live in a PvP town. As long as I have the option to not wander in there, why should I care if some people want to fight each other in their town? In a huge map like we currently have, a 100x100 area is honestly very small and the limit seems entirely arbitrary. 

To expand a bit on scher's point regarding incentives for PvP, I think one incentive that wouldn't be unbalanced would be to introduce a head-gathering system that scales based on combatants' gear. If Player A wearing iron gear manages to kill player B in Diamond, A should have an increased chance of getting a head drop of that player. This provides a neat trophy - which is technically still obtainable in PvE via dopples - but allows the PvP players to show off their skill. On the other hand, if someone in vastly superior gear is beating down on someone unarmored, their chances of a head drop will be zero. I'm sure there are some other neat but balanced perks people could come up with, such as weapons or armor with special lore/flavor text, decorative prizes for the player with the most PvP kills that month that could be displayed in item frames, etc. There are plenty of ways this could be done even without any changes to the current plugin system.

I've gone on for too long here, so I'll wrap it up with this: I see zero harm in giving this a chance, and a lot of potential benefit for players who love the community here but feel marginalized due to their favorite type of gameplay being gone. Please consider giving this a fair shake, even if it's just for one revision. There will inevitably be a few bumps in the road but I think this is a very low-risk way to help provide more gameplay options to everyone here on Nerd.nu.

 

Edit: Added a few bold lines for a TL;DR summary.

Edited March 26, 2018 by ttsci

[Trooprm32]

40 minutes ago, ttsci said:

To expand a bit on scher's point regarding incentives for PvP, I think one incentive that wouldn't be unbalanced would be to introduce a head-gathering system that scales based on combatants' gear. If Player A wearing iron gear manages to kill player B in Diamond, A should have an increased chance of getting a head drop of that player. This provides a neat trophy - which is technically still obtainable in PvE via dopples - but allows the PvP players to show off their skill. On the other hand, if someone in vastly superior gear is beating down on someone unarmored, their chances of a head drop will be zero. I'm sure there are some other neat but balanced perks people could come up with, such as weapons or armor with special lore/flavor text, decorative prizes for the player with the most PvP kills that month that could be displayed in item frames, etc. There are plenty of ways this could be done even without any changes to the current plugin system.

 

I don't care that awful much about a large pvp arena, but having an easily exploitable system in which you get free heads, or -other things- from killing other players while still on the PvE server is not a good idea. The only reason that worked for the S and PvP days is because you didn't have any other (paid) options.

You mentioned having something like this wouldn't impose on regular staff if this was to occur, but also mention giving top players perks or recognition; which in fact would require additional Padmin work.

[ttsci]

4 minutes ago, Trooprm32 said:

I don't care that awful much about a large pvp arena, but having an easily exploitable system in which you get free heads, or -other things- from killing other players while still on the PvE server is not a good idea. The only reason that worked for the S and PvP days is because you didn't have any other (paid) options.

You mentioned having something like this wouldn't impose on regular staff if this was to occur, but also mention giving top players perks or recognition; which in fact would require additional Padmin work.

The heads was just spitballing a suggestion since the topic of "PvP incentives" came up. With that said, I don't feel too bothered by the idea of people having a player head from another person - this isn't a "get any head you want" system where you can farm decorative objects. Besides, don't we already have "free heads from killing other players" during Admin Hunts? They're trophies and nothing more. It bothers me no more that someone has 50 Shanty_Sniper heads than it does that someone dug up a bunch of emeralds and built a big fort out of it. If someone really wants to stand there and farm heads of other players who choose to let themselves be killed in hopes of triggering a drop, how does that hurt me? I'll admit it's late here and there's possibly some other use of heads I'm forgetting about - and if there is, please remind me - but right now I don't see how this harms anybody. The absolute worst I can think of is someone using an alt, changing the skin, and using that alt to obtain one decorative object - and then they can't change that alt's skin for the remainder of the revision. 

I also want to clarify that I said I felt it wouldn't be an undue burden on staff, not that it would have no impact. Any sort of perk or recognition is something that should be relatively trivial to implement, seeing as most of these features were already implemented back when S was around. A leaderboard page on the website shouldn't require any additional attention. 

However, the most important points of my post should stand independently of the ideas regarding "PvP perks". Ultimately that section is entirely unnecessary and I only included it because I felt scher raised some good points and I thought they were worth building on.

[Flumper]

I think more could be done to promote the fact that players can build PVP arenas, since so few (if any) have been built in recent revisions. Many newer players may just not know that they're allowed.

Having said that, I wouldn't want to see any major changes done to the way PVP is handled on P. I could definitely support larger maximum arena sizes, since the maps are so large these days. But I worry that any more fundamental changes (such as not needing it to be a fully contained arena), would just create potential drama. One of the main things that I like about P is the sense of friendliness and co-operation that is very much missing on every single PVP server I have played on. I don't think P would ever end up quite as hostile as some, but I certainly worry it could alter the character of the server for the worse.

I'm also not convinced (though I could be) that there is much interest in this from the playerbase as a whole. While PVP suggestions do appear every so often, it mostly seems like the same few voices who show their support.

I'd like to see PVP arenas make a comeback, though. They can be a lot of fun and if anyone here builds one on P, let me know and I'll happily try to beat you to death with a potato.

[robr]

Another option to throw out there might be a “special” portal that instead of  going to the nether, instead goes to a multiverse world that’s pvp enabled.. nothing large though, something along the lines of a sky block Island .. spawn protected with a random tp sign on the violent side of the portal to prevent spawn camping.. 

[ieuweh]

Hey everyone!

Stretching the definition of the PvE server to embrace the PvP spirit would require the transformation of the server’s brand entirely, and whilst we sympathize with those who wish to create a thriving PvP community, we must be sure to weight heavily the risk of losing a good chunk of the PvE community in the process.

As many of you have mentioned though, players interested in a richer PvP experience don’t have a home on nerd.nu right now, and while the possibility to reorganize and ask the Head admins for the resurrection of the survival server is still there and always will be (and we encourage you to do so!), we recognize it is a task easier to talk about than to make happen, so we have been discussing what could work for us, the community, within the limits of a PvE server.

Here are the suggestions posted so far in this thread, and the responses of the PAdmin team after discussion:

1. Increase the size of the PvP arenas.

Moving forward, the PvP arena size limit will be reviewed in relation to the map size (bigger maps, like the current one, can accommodate bigger arenas instead of being limited to an area of 100x100 blocks). Understandably, this review will take place leading up to each respective reset which we’re currently seeking feedback for!

2. PvP towns.

PvP towns have been built in the past and can still be built by following the same rules as arenas, allowing players to surprise each other or attack their neighboring PvP towns without the need to plan a match.

3. More promotion of PvP arenas and events.

Thanks to many players’ support and hard work (particularly from the FST and Pumpkinopolis this revision - thank you guys!), efforts to regularly schedule and promote PvP events have been made! A generous amount of people have attended (including a very gracious ghast), the arena traps have performed beautifully (thank you Makau!) and the fights have been thrilling. We are happy to help players promote their PvP events in the same way as we do other events - with livemap icons, alerts, announcements and so on - see here for details.

4. Player head drops and recognition.

Even though these are not official trophies obtained through plugins or admin magic, participants are recognized and champions celebrated in the PvP events mentioned above by rewarding them with the defeated player head as a trophy (obtained through doppels after battle, very macabre, I know!) and keeping a hall of fame updated. We like to see organisers offering their own rewards when running events, and don’t wish to step on toes in that regard. Should a PAdmin run PvP event occur at any point, we will be sure to give due recognition to victors, as we would other event types.

5. Create a separate world.

This is not a suggestion that we will be pursuing now, but a similar idea could be to create a PvP town where the ultimate sin is welcome, sort of like Pariah town in Westworld… There would be a need for players to maintain and keep such a place alive, anyone interested in this kind of project?

 

It is also worth mentioning that the Creative server allows players to create PvP regions with no restrictions in size. The only requirement is to have the area fully enclosed to prevent people from accidentally flying into them and being put in survival mode.

And finally, the Head admins have put up the 1.13-pre2 (the latest release) on event.nerd.nu, where PvP is enabled! Go hunt some people sea creatures while you can!

[ttsci]

3 hours ago, ieuweh said:

Stretching the definition of the PvE server to embrace the PvP spirit would require the transformation of the server’s brand entirely, and whilst we sympathize with those who wish to create a thriving PvP community, we must be sure to weight heavily the risk of losing a good chunk of the PvE community in the process

I'm a bit confused by this sentiment, mainly because I don't see how providing more options to players "transforms the server's brand". We already offer the ability to make PvP arenas, so we're not talking about introducing a new feature, just relaxing certain restrictions on something that already exists. The discussion isn't about global PvP or forcing people to engage in something they don't want to; we just want to make it easier for people who want to participate in PvP within the confines of PvE to do so with greater flexibility. 

3 hours ago, ieuweh said:

Moving forward, the PvP arena size limit will be reviewed in relation to the map size (bigger maps, like the current one, can accommodate bigger arenas instead of being limited to an area of 100x100 blocks). Understandably, this review will take place leading up to each respective reset which we’re currently seeking feedback for!

Is there any reason this can't be implemented now? Seeing as we're halfway through the rev and there's tons of available space, it seems like a pure policy change like this could be in effect immediately. As far as I'm aware, there are no technical limitations on why this can't happen right now, and it seems like a very simple way to make more people happy.

3 hours ago, ieuweh said:

PvP towns have been built in the past and can still be built by following the same rules as arenas, allowing players to surprise each other or attack their neighboring PvP towns without the need to plan a match.

The main issue I've heard regarding PvP towns is the fact that PvP areas cannot be connected and the regions were too small to permit proper town building in anything but a vertical format (not really ideal for PvP). Was there any discussion of whether or not to change the policy regarding connected areas?

 

[ieuweh]

@ttsci! I just want to let you know that we are discussing the questions you raised atm!

Forwarding you a telegram:

"WILL SEND UPDATE WHEN CONCLUDED -(STOP)- PADMINS"

[tobylane]

On 20/06/2018 at 4:07 AM, ttsci said:

The main issue I've heard regarding PvP towns is the fact that PvP areas cannot be connected and the regions were too small to permit proper town building in anything but a vertical format (not really ideal for PvP). Was there any discussion of whether or not to change the policy regarding connected areas?

 

This could have happened with the town I linked above but I don't think they ever applied for a zone (or built the wall). Has a town become a pvp town yet?

[ttsci]

On 6/20/2018 at 5:03 PM, ieuweh said:

@ttsci! I just want to let you know that we are discussing the questions you raised atm!

Forwarding you a telegram:

"WILL SEND UPDATE WHEN CONCLUDED -(STOP)- PADMINS"

Sounds good ieuweh!

I'm glad to hear that there's a commitment to larger PvP regions so everyone can enjoy their preferred activities in the PvE way! I was thinking about it a bit and given that this map is so huge with tons of free space, I could easily see us moving to a smaller one next revision with no crowding. I was hoping to also get confirmation that we won't go backwards on the progress we've made here - after all, I think it's fair that when a new map starts, everyone gets equal claim to available land regardless of whether they want to build an arena/PvP region or some other project!

[Silversunset01]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:14 AM, ttsci said:

I'm glad to hear that there's a commitment to larger PvP regions so everyone can enjoy their preferred activities in the PvE way! I was thinking about it a bit and given that this map is so huge with tons of free space, I could easily see us moving to a smaller one next revision with no crowding. I was hoping to also get confirmation that we won't go backwards on the progress we've made here - after all, I think it's fair that when a new map starts, everyone gets equal claim to available land regardless of whether they want to build an arena/PvP region or some other project!

There seems to be some confusion about what we’ve put forward. We are currently in the process of gathering feedback for the next revision and will use that information (as well as the feedback expressed via other means such as this post or conversations we’ve had with people) to shape what the revision will look like. There are a few policies currently in place that, based on what has been said, could use some review.

Clearly this post indicates that one area in need of review are pvp regions. Traditionally the PvP and PvE culture have been very different, we have seen this over multiple pvp-type servers on nerd as well as players coming to PvE from other servers. Changes that risk damaging PvEs culture are not something that we can jump into quickly or without serious consideration and research.

For now we have only committed to reviewing our requirements for PvP regions on PvE, whatever we decide on will need to fit into our culture as well as the physical limitations of whatever map we are using at the time. If this means arenas are scalable based on the map size then we will announce those requirements at the beginning of each revision so they are clear. Many of the other suggestions listed in this thread are not really appropriate for our PvE server at this time and would be better suited elsewhere, either on creative where the rules regarding PvP are more lenient or on an entirely separate server.

We’d like to be clear about this, while we are willing to discuss ways to better accommodate PvP players within the PvE server we do need to make sure we are including everyone’s feedback. This thread only encompasses a very small portion of players who are asking for this modification, and we need to make sure that any change we decide on will not be detrimental to the server as a whole. That being said, we do thank you for the  thoughts presented in this thread and the positive contributions to the discussion.

[ttsci]

Thank you for the clarification, though I feel like I still don't understand why it's not possible to trial an expanded arena size this revision, since we've got easily three months left and a massive map with which to experiment. I suppose I just don't see the harm in trying something and seeing how it goes rather than trying to plan everything on paper. It's very hard to determine how people will react in a vacuum, so I'd think it would be more beneficial to float a trial balloon in the waning months of the current revision and solicit active feedback rather than trying to plan for every hypothetical or anticipate reactions. But maybe that's just because I think it's easier to do live debugging. :)

[ttsci]

Just wanted to check in and see if there was any update since it's been a couple of weeks! Thanks all! :)

[Guest Former Staff]

Just what we've already said ttsci. ^

[ieuweh]

How often would everyone like to see PvP events on PvE?

@tobylane I haven't been around the servers for long enough to know for sure, but at least recently, there hasn't been a town that successfully became a PvP town, either for lack of space or players and motivation :c

[ttsci]

2 hours ago, Barlimore said:

Just what we've already said ttsci. ^

I did thank Silver for her clarification, but maybe I wasn't clear enough in explaining that I had a follow-up question. Sorry if that wasn't made clear!

To explain, mainly I was interested in what the rationale was behind not using the remainder of this rev as a trial period to experiment with different PvP configurations to find out what works best for meeting players' needs and why we can't test a policy change (larger arenas) that has no associated technical changes (doesn't require plugins or tech work). It sounded from ieu's post that a significant amount of discussion and thought went into how to best address this, so I was hoping to gain some additional insight into the thought process and how we can work together as a community to bring additional flexibility to how people play. I would think it can only help for everyone to understand the rationale so we can figure out the most productive way to make future changes smooth and satisfying to all.

Thanks again!

[Guest Former Staff]

We don't like to make changes to the core gameplay of the revisions until resets generally but the opportunity to consider it for the upcoming reset is something we are discussing.

[SkrapssparkS]

After looking at this I have a few points. If PvE were to implement a PvP area say the top few hundred blocks of the map it would be relatively easy. However, while setting up the area wouldn't be too difficult it would require quite a few changes to PvE and to the staff. Firstly mods would be required to learn how to moderate like they would for the survival server, which is not easy. Spotting certain hacks that might not appear in NCP can be especially difficult, new hacks would be getting used on the server. It would require much more admin work. Time spent moderating the survival zone is time away from moderating the Creative server and the PvE server. The server itself would have to have some updates. The rules for PvE would change as it would have to include all the survival rules, spawn would have to update to let people know about the survival zone and how to act when inside it. While the survival server was fun, it didn't attract too many players. Some threats it could pose would be as stated the prizes such as heads could take away from prizes given out in PvE for events. You'll always get people flying into the survival zone by accident and dying, same with new players wandering in and dying. It also has the possibility to cause PvE players to leave to try and find a server dedicated solely to PvE. After all the implementation of new rules, it could flop, and it kind of defeats the point of the server being player vs environment.

Okay, now that I've got all the negative out the way there are some very good perks to this.

For one, you now get PvP, which is great fun. It would integrate two Minecraft communities, those that like PvP, and those that don't. It wouldn't cost anything to set up. It wouldn't really change how PvE outside of the PvP zone is played or doesn't have to. It could present quite fun event opportunities. It could get back some of our older players that left after s.nerd.nu closed, and it could attract some new players (you never know). While they have to spend time learning new moderating commands and skills, those are still skills which can come in use. Despite all the negative, there's no harm in a trial. There's also the potential of having it in a multiword.

Now in my personal opinion, I love survival and would want to play it again. However, I don't think the perks outweigh the negatives. That being said most of the negatives come from the idea that survival would be part of PvE. If resources aren't too scarce, I think it'd work much better in a multiverse, or as it's own server again. There are a lot of negatives so I personally don't think it'd work so well as a section of PvE, but hey it's always worth a trial.

 

My apologies if this matter is already closed.