This is a huge issue that needs to be fixed

Mumberthrax · December 16, 2014

Hi bmx, and others. We've made a post here regarding our decision to invite TheAcademician to join the sadmin team: https://nerd.nu/forums/topic/2871-please-welcome-our-newest-survival-admin/?p=22175

Regarding our usage stats on S, P, and C:
Beastbruiser, redwall, and I all play on S, and like many of you we play on the other nerd servers as well. We even play non-minecraft games or do other things in our leisure time. Some of us even play on non-nerd minecraft servers occasionally. I don't think this is controversial.

Like many of our oldtimer S players, we don't find vanilla minecraft quite as fun as it used to be. Its true this revision is mostly vanilla-ish, more similar to vanilla than the previous revision for example. Our focus is currently on creating a more appealing gameplay style, something novel and with long-term attraction. I hope that you can forgive us for not playing so much as handling administrative and development things. I'm sure the other admins can attest that a fair amount of administrative work goes on outside of the actual server itself, whether it is preparing the map/server, being involved in policy decisions, responding to private messages on irc, skype, forums, etc. or trying to compose responses to posts like this one. For myself, I will say that I spend far more time thinking and working on things relating to S and nerd in general than I ever did when I was super active on S in the past, like when I made my library, or post office, or commercial district road, or public superfarm, or trading post, or the city of Egreth, or assisting with some of the development of Sanctuary. You're welcome to read into that anything you like.

SpiderMan · December 16, 2014

Regarding our usage stats on S, P, and C:

Beastbruiser, redwall, and I all play on S, and like many of you we play on the other nerd servers as well. We even play non-minecraft games or do other things in our leisure time. Some of us even play on non-nerd minecraft servers occasionally. I don't think this is controversial.

The reason this thread exists doesn't have to do with the other games you play, but the lack of activity that has to do with actually keeping the survival server fresh.

When s was first started, it was essentially a pvp server. It still was when beastbruiser, redwall, theacademician, and you built egreth. It isn't so much anymore.

The majority of people belive that has to do with the lack of community requested features, others believe that it is a move to make it more like the thriving pve server.

Our focus is currently on creating a more appealing gameplay style, something novel and with long-term attraction.

Would the community input be part of creating the next map revision. Most people believe that wasn't the case with the current rev, and have the user count as an example. If you need ideas, there are currently a ton of threads that have essentially gone nowhere.

I personally think that in order for the survival community to grow, community ideas have to actually be considered.

https://nerd.nu/forums/tags/forums/Survival/

Edited December 16, 2014 by gsand

EeHee2000 · December 16, 2014

I love how my shittery of 2012 has transitioned from a net negative to a net positive for the admins. Need a convenient excuse for never making anyone with a modicum of involvement with the community an admin? Facing a dilemma where you have personal beef with the painfully obvious candidates for admin? Just elect someone you chat with every day in private IRC rooms instead! Why? Because 2 years ago someone we trusted fucked us over, so now we can never trust anyone but our mates again. If MCPublic was a reddit user, they'd be subscribed to r/theredpill.

It's ridiculous to read people like totemo once again talk about "naysayers". We had trolls in my day too, you know, but there weren't enough to downvote the announcement of a new admin to 0 points. Are they rabble-rousing, or are you just wrong? Want to get rid of the naysayers in one easy step? Shut down the survival server. Stop playing this fucking game where you perennially give survival players hope, then do nothing for weeks, then do something shitty and unjustifyable. Some of the people in this thread still give a shit about survival, please fucking stop treating them with as much distain as I treated the admins 2 years ago.

> You're often asking for a big change, seemingly based entirely on your idea of what you want the S server to be. Someone without any baggage or attachment to the S you call failing would do that job perfectly.

How stupid do you have to be to type these words and consider it worthwhile to press the "Post" button? The mind boggles.

Puts my thoughts into words, well said.

Admins, stop whacking off in the corner and fucking do something with Survival. The routine of adding new admins that barely know Survival is clearly not working and it's hilarious that you still haven't noticed that.

Inb4 post removed.

Edited December 16, 2014 by EeHee2000

Four_Down · December 17, 2014

Like many of our oldtimer S players, we don't find vanilla minecraft quite as fun as it used to be.

Wow. So even you Admins don't enjoy the current gameplay of S, how does this not shout 'We need change now'?

Also, do you not think that this is a little hypocritical when another staff member has been telling players that we have a duty to play S, regardless of whether we enjoy it?

Our focus is currently on creating a more appealing gameplay style, something novel and with long-term attraction

When do you guys plan on showing us your plans for Survival?

For the last few months, this has been the constant phrase we hear, yet we've still seen no evidence of this actually happening.

Perhaps it's time to move out of SAdmin-only discussion, and allow the community to have an insight into what is going on behind the scenes.

Would you mind sharing the reasons that TornadoHorse/Mrgauthier/djt/smdaivs/dizney (Sorry if I missed anyone) were disqualified from the S Admin position? Grouping together and making a general feedback would be fine, if you don't want to state reasons for each.

SpiderMan · December 17, 2014

How do you grow a community if you essentially ignore any community feedback or never consider any community suggestions?

The PvE server is thriving because the PvE admins listen and interact with members of the PvE server. Why is that completely off the table for the s community?

In the last nerd.nu mumble meeting, I remember that the s admins were going to hold another mumble meeting with community participation allowed to discuss ways of making the survival server more appealing to new players, this hasn't happened yet. Is there an ETA for when this community meeting will happen?

Here's a link to all the threads that have been tagged as "survival" btw.

https://nerd.nu/forums/tags/forums/Survival/

-gsand

Edited December 17, 2014 by gsand

kittypuppet · December 17, 2014

How do you grow a community if you essentially ignore any community feedback or never consider any community suggestions?

The PvE server is thriving because the PvE admins listen and interact with members of the PvE server. Why is that completely off the table for the s community?

This is true for C as well. When Jchance was given cadmin status, first thing he did was give us what we've been asking for, for so long - WorldEdit

Not only did it make us happy, but it essentially brought C back from the dead, and we've slowly been gaining more of a playerbase.

d3north · December 17, 2014

allow the community to have an insight into what is going on behind the scenes.

This is the core problem I've seen and talked about over the past several weeks, but excuses and sidestepping shut down talks almost as soon as they start.

I would be ecstatic if staff gave complete transparency. Future plans, thoughts on players, any reasons and/or steps taken for anything should be public. Putting things behind a "STAFF ONLY" wall and wondering why staff and players are disconnected is idiocy to me.

bmx20042004 · December 17, 2014

Just an fyi I posted a new thread speaking about the development team idea. Below is a link to it.

https://nerd.nu/forums/topic/2879-development-discussions-for-survival/

Mrloud15 · December 18, 2014

Would the community input be part of creating the next map revision. Most people believe that wasn't the case with the current rev, and have the user count as an example. If you need ideas, there are currently a ton of threads that have essentially gone nowhere.

I personally think that in order for the survival community to grow, community ideas have to actually be considered.

https://nerd.nu/forums/tags/forums/Survival/

I figured that I would show you that the sadmins do listen to you guys and have used the communities' suggestions for the current and past revs since there seem to be a lot of talk going around saying they have not. Now I will agree with you guys that there should be communication about rev 28, and I'm working with the sadmins to set something up similar to what we have done in the past. While that is in the works, I can tell you that the sadmins are looking at a quite a few player suggested ideas for the new rev.

Now let's start with how the last 3 revs came to be starting with the current rev, rev 27.

Survival Rev 26 feedback - 41 players contributed to the thread which was was the base for rev 27. Rev 27 also had a few player suggested ideas from the Survival General Meetings. The General meeting, we (since I was a sadmin at that time) spent over 7 hours over 2 meetings listening to you guys and want you wanted out of S, and many more hours going through all of the suggestions posted in the google forum. One of the most popular ideas that came out of these meetings was a citadel based server which is what happened for rev 26. Rev 25 was a test rev where we could test out some of the plugins we were going to use for the citadel based rev 26 and to allow us time to build the map and configure the plugins.

I have seen you post a link to all of the threads with the tag "Survival" a few times, so I went trough the first 4 pages, 100 posts, and collected all of the threads where players suggested ideas, the sadmins have asked for feedback from players, and where the sadmins have asked for ideas or suggestions. (Please note that they are not in any order) It's not hard to find plenty of examples of how the communities ideas, suggestions, and feedback have shared the recent revs. To be fair you can also find plenty of examples of were ideas were suggested and not implemented on the servers. This could be for several reasons like the idea was not well received, there were issues with plugins, plugins needed to be created, we have not had the opportunity to test the idea out yet, etc..

Aeoxic · December 20, 2014

I'll start by pointing out that I'm very well aware of my ranking on the survival usage board. At the time of posting I'm 305th with just shy of two hours of total play time this revision. Several revisions ago, however, I was regularly in the top 5 - 15 players in terms of play time.

When a group of people collectively states that their opinion of x is y, generally you're not going to change that. Of course there are some glaring examples of the contrary such as the beginnings of the universe / humankind or the correct way to compose a cup of tea, however this doesn't apply when the main collective playerbase of survival is saying that they're not getting heard enough. Anecdotal evidence (and that's all these threads are - anecdotal) does not contribute to a defence.

At the risk of beating the skeleton of the dead horse into a fine dust, from what I've gathered passively the primary criticisms are the following:

1. The current survival server admins are not survival server core players

2. The current survival server admins don't listen to anybody

3. Nothing is ever going anywhere.

1. The current survival server admins are not survival server core players
Sorry admins, but this is indisputable. The only reason I can't say "none of the staff are even in the top 20" is because Mumberthrax just shaves in at number 17. If the average number of hours for the S admins was a player, it'd be number 25 on the usage charts. If we include TheAcademician (at a total of zero hours), it clocks in at around number 34. The only person who even comes close to being a survival core player is redwall_hp, and it took about three revisions until he was a household name as a moderator because even his time on the servers was sparse.

Between the four combined, the survival administrators have 139 hours of played time this revision on the survival server. Comparatively, there's a total of 733 hours of played time on the PvE server. This thread contains several justifications for it. Of them, Beastbruiser's stood out to me most. The long and short of it is that it's not an enjoyable experience to play on S. That's understandable, because I and many other current S players agree with that. From an observational point of view, my problem is with the played hours disparity. Mumberthrax has 59 hours on S, and 192 on P. You accepted the position of server admin in order to perform various duties largely in the vein of improving and shaping the future of the survival server. What makes PvE such an enjoyable experience by comparison that you would dedicate between three and four times your time to it, than to molding the server you're responsible for into something you want to play? Given those reasons, why isn't there any clear and cut progress towards fixing those reasons? Those are your goalposts.

2. The current survival server admins don't listen to anybody
I'd submit that this is half-true, and while one half of it belongs within point three, the other half is a problem of communication. We have several communication avenues open to us for NerdNu. We have the forums, the subreddit, the IRC, and in-game.

The first two have the problem of being poster-boards. Anyone can submit a comment to it and, frankly, everyone does. A lot of criticism threads turn into heresay and opinion slinging. Opinions are like nipples, everybody has one. Some have solid points, others are obscured by layers, and some are displayed at every opportunity regardless of whether the audience has stated "I am interested in your nipples" or not. Cats have between 8 and twelve. In-game the admins just want to either do their job or play the game. In both circumstances there's little desire for a chat about the servers' future, and this is understandable. IRC has a myriad of issues ranging from the fact that one-on-one private conversations can be later misconstrued, to the fact that some people simply don't log IRC.

One communication method I've left off there is Mumble, and for good reason. Mumble (or VoIP in general) is an incredible device for conversing, not just communicating. The nigh-annual Mumble meetings that are held have, given that the ~~serfs~~ non-staff have been allowed to input into conversation, always been a net positive. Casual conversation regarding current thoughts on the server at present and in the future would be highly valuable. This was a common experience with the server admins up until those after draykhar and Tharine who, whilst server staff, still maintained a highly active Mumble presence and were able to consistently communicate with players both in the context of playing the game and playing the politics. Currently, I'm only aware of redwall_hp and Beastbruiser ever being on Mumble when they're playing Trouble in Terrorist Town. Mumberthrax doesn't like his headset, to which I venture should be remedied by simply buying a new one or, if $50 is a bit much to drop right now, start a S-centric fundraiser for one. I'm sure people would contribute if they believe it'll increase server admin Mumble activity.

3. Nothing is ever going anywhere.
Herein is the latter half of point two. The server admins do sometimes listen, but only when they're within reasonable distance of a well-marked "to-do" pile. Then they can take the suggestion and make a large song and dance about putting it on the pile. No mention is ever made of the ever-growing size of the pile or the fact that the last time something was removed from it, CraftBukkit wasn't illegal. The primary cause of these seems to have one commonality: Effort. The amount of effort required to remedy these things is often too high to bother. As an ex-developer, I'm very well aware of the fact that larger-scale plugins and sweeping configuration changes can't be created and tested overnight, however many hands make light work. There are multiple capable Java developers within the survival community that can assist. All they need is a green light from an admin saying "I'm willing to try this". For a lot of things, they don't even ever get that.

I'm of the opinion that what needs to happen is not simply a cool new admin from what I can only assume the admin team sarcastically refer to as "da boiz" while rolling their eyes. I believe that while the current administrative team doesn't actively play on S, this is something that should change in order to bring them more in tune with the playerbase at its rawest. What needs to happen is a culture shift back towards the idea of actively making a difference, not just "keeping things running". Vanilla Minecraft is now boring. Factions and pay-to-win servers are thriving. Even HardcoreSMP is magnitudes more active around the clock than S is, and players get banned when they die there.

On the other hand, what needs to happen for any of the above to even hit the runway, let alone fly, is ideas to work with. These come largely in the form of really sparsely thought out reddit posts with "thoughts?" in the footer. This isn't a productive or useful way to create a think tank. Approximately a year and a half ago a group of players created a very large document listing, in great detail, their thoughts on the current issues and their potential solutions. About half of those suggestions have been implemented permanently, or implemented, later decided against, and subsequently removed. Sure, it's a lot of work, but it's a labour of love, right? There's no requirement for a symphony accompanying each individual idea, but detailing and updating it properly goes a long way. It helps everybody see your perspective from the get-go. Another form of idea generation is simply through passively observing new players. Players will often join and ask if feature x is available on this server. Take these into account.

Thanks to edk, gsand, tobylane, and the few others who proofread, edited, and added to this post.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Aeoxic

dizney07 · December 21, 2014

-Disclaimer: Nothing said here is a shot at TheAcademician. I will reiterate that she as a player and a person is wonderful, and she is also an amazing tech-

Honestly I'm disappointed in the sadmin team for their failure to give us a solid response on any point in this thread. As Mumber does a good job of taking the focus off Aca in his post in this thread, I will be addressing the statements made here: https://nerd.nu/forums/topic/2871-please-welcome-our-newest-survival-admin/?p=22175

"Hello everyone. We Sadmins noticed there is a flurry of activity in response to our decision to invite TheAcademician to join the Sadmin team. We'd like to clear a few things up about this decision.

We chose TheAcademician as our next Survival admin for several reasons. She has a good history as a Survival player, having played and moderated here for quite awhile before gravitating more toward PvE in recent months. Some of you who have played on Survival in the past may recognize her as the architect of Sanctuary and Egreth (which were quite a magnet for PvP during revs 20 and 21). She also made the CobraCorral plugin that Survival has been using for a few revs.

TheAcademician was chosen for the reason we choose any admin: we think she will work well with the team, handle the responsibilities we're trusting her with well, and be an asset in planning and developing future revs. We're looking forward to working with her to produce a fun serve r to play blocks on. :)"

This response is not satisfactory in my opinion. How is creating pve cities in two revs considered to be a good history as a survival player? Furthermore how is having a good history on S something to be taken into account? Plenty of players have a good "history" on S, but I thought we weren't looking at the past and only trying to move forward towards the present? Maybe I misunderstood your post in THIS thread stating that this gameplay is now boring and that we should find some new way of creating S, thus going against our history.

As a heavy player in both revs of these cities, and constructing a lot of what you saw in Sanctuary, I can assure you that these were not pvp hot spots. The locations of the cities were not given out most of the time due to wanting to avoid pvp. Not only that, but these cities were built far away to avoid pvp interaction. Because of this, it's clear these cities were made with a more PvE mindset, which went against what S was in previous revisions.

Now to address the last part, this criteria seems to be a borderline popularity contest. Who will work best with the team? A friend. Who can we trust to do their duties? A friend. It also seems that rev planning would go a lot smoother if everyone was on board with the same ideas. Generally it seems that players tend to stick with players that have the same ideas as them. In short, a friend. Becoming admin should not be who has more friends on the current admin team, it should be someone who is very passionate about the server, and wants to see it succeed far beyond what it was in the past. With 0 hours put in, it's clear the passion just isn't there.

Lastly I just want to say that it's hard to accept a player as an admin who was so quick to leave due to the player base. If someone didn't like the player base in the past, what's changed now to make them come back aside from just an admin role?

tobylane · December 21, 2014

-Disclaimer: Nothing said here is a shot at TheAcademician. I will reiterate that she as a player and a person is wonderful, and she is also an amazing tech-

This response is not satisfactory in my opinion. How is creating pve cities in two revs considered to be a good history as a survival player? Furthermore how is having a good history on S something to be taken into account? Plenty of players have a good "history" on S, but I thought we weren't looking at the past and only trying to move forward towards the present? Maybe I misunderstood your post in THIS thread stating that this gameplay is now boring and that we should find some new way of creating S, thus going against our history.

As a heavy player in both revs of these cities, and constructing a lot of what you saw in Sanctuary, I can assure you that these were not pvp hot spots. The locations of the cities were not given out most of the time due to wanting to avoid pvp. Not only that, but these cities were built far away to avoid pvp interaction. Because of this, it's clear these cities were made with a more PvE mindset, which went against what S was in previous revisions.

Now to address the last part, this criteria seems to be a borderline popularity contest. Who will work best with the team? A friend. Who can we trust to do their duties? A friend. It also seems that rev planning would go a lot smoother if everyone was on board with the same ideas. Generally it seems that players tend to stick with players that have the same ideas as them. In short, a friend. Becoming admin should not be who has more friends on the current admin team, it should be someone who is very passionate about the server, and wants to see it succeed far beyond what it was in the past. With 0 hours put in, it's clear the passion just isn't there.

Lastly I just want to say that it's hard to accept a player as an admin who was so quick to leave due to the player base. If someone didn't like the player base in the past, what's changed now to make them come back aside from just an admin role?

Why is building cities not suitable experience? No true survival player? You quoted an answer that was only needed because of your questions, so the admins are looking back to deal with the question and not brush it off.

I saw the friend part addressed very well somewhere else. Its because they've been made very nervous of your future reactions and any new staff member surprising them. That's human nature, and I'd love to hear a way around it because it would be helpful world wide.

If I were in their place I'd think that someone who is capable of being an admin on a dying server, who played in a slightly different way to most players, they would be ideal for helping the server not die. Is living in a city really a bad different? It's a communal form of what everyone does, have a far away hidden base. The pvp hotspots as far as I know (which is little, please update me) are the spawn exits and roads, and crossroads.

CROCKODUCK · December 21, 2014

Why is building cities not suitable experience? No true survival player? You quoted an answer that was only needed because of your questions, so the admins are looking back to deal with the question and not brush it off.

I saw the friend part addressed very well somewhere else. Its because they've been made very nervous of your future reactions and any new staff member surprising them. That's human nature, and I'd love to hear a way around it because it would be helpful world wide.

If I were in their place I'd think that someone who is capable of being an admin on a dying server, who played in a slightly different way to most players, they would be ideal for helping the server not die. Is living in a city really a bad different? It's a communal form of what everyone does, have a far away hidden base. The pvp hotspots as far as I know (which is little, please update me) are the spawn exits and roads, and crossroads.

Why do you think its dying to begin with? We needed a solution, not duct tape.

How about an overhaul of the admin system. We've had the same system in place since 2011 and it's clearly no longer effective. Admins used to chose players who they knew well but knew were very active in what they do. Personally I would have chosen Aca for any admin position. Hell I actually have on a small server I run. She knows it all and I feel she will do VERY well in this position. So let's leave aca out of this for a minute.

Let's talk in general admin nominating. The system should be from an outside party? The community perhaps! You run the risk of more popularity contests but it's a very good start for finding the best candidate. How about the head admins? They don't step foot in game enough sometimes but it could be possible. Perhaps the mods? I personally wouldn't feel comfortable voting in the new sadmin because I'll admit I don't know everyone who's most active and helpful on survival. So now we go back to the community.

We never once have involved the community in any process which is the cold hard truth of it, so changing one thing at a time to work this way might be the best shot we have. I'm not saying we should just immediately jump into voting for mods and all that, but the admin system needs a change. No matter how they deflect the actual question or problem, it needs a change and everyone knows it. You guys can't expect a response right now since the sadmins answer after discussing an answer. So realistically I want to hear more on how the community feels about this.

Trooprm32 · December 21, 2014

Why do you think its dying to begin with? We needed a solution, not duct tape.

How about an overhaul of the admin system. We've had the same system in place since 2011 and it's clearly no longer effective. Admins used to chose players who they knew well but knew were very active in what they do. Personally I would have chosen Aca for any admin position. Hell I actually have on a small server I run. She knows it all and I feel she will do VERY well in this position. So let's leave aca out of this for a minute.

Let's talk in general admin nominating. The system should be from an outside party? The community perhaps! You run the risk of more popularity contests but it's a very good start for finding the best candidate. How about the head admins? They don't step foot in game enough sometimes but it could be possible. Perhaps the mods? I personally wouldn't feel comfortable voting in the new sadmin because I'll admit I don't know everyone who's most active and helpful on survival. So now we go back to the community.

We never once have involved the community in any process which is the cold hard truth of it, so changing one thing at a time to work this way might be the best shot we have. I'm not saying we should just immediately jump into voting for mods and all that, but the admin system needs a change. No matter how they deflect the actual question or problem, it needs a change and everyone knows it. You guys can't expect a response right now since the sadmins answer after discussing an answer. So realistically I want to hear more on how the community feels about this.

And how do you expect the community to know who would make a good admin? Admins nominate others for admins because they know what that players' skills are, and assume they can handle or are responsible enough for the position. Being a player or even a mod is a whole different ballgame in terms of responsibility.

CROCKODUCK · December 21, 2014

And how do you expect the community to know who would make a good admin? Admins nominate others for admins because they know what that players' skills are, and assume they can handle or are responsible enough for the position. Being a player or even a mod is a whole different ballgame in terms of responsibility.

Tornadohorse and Avada and many other S dedicated players have spent more time on there than any admins. So despite it being a different ballgame they would be the ones to know what is best.

The analogy I'd have to say is it's similar to America under British rule. The leaders never stepped foot here, so how the hell do they know what's going on? It's one thing when the admins just ignore in game and work out of game on things. It's another when some players who've been here for 3 months or longer have never seen some sadmins on game. Are you saying this whole concept of "well I'm an admin so I don't need to PLAY minecraft anymore, just brainstorm" is okay?

And to clarify I'm not bashing what goes on out of game. Just more focusing on why nothing in game occurs anymore.

Trooprm32 · December 21, 2014

Tornadohorse and Avada and many other S dedicated players have spent more time on there than any admins. So despite it being a different ballgame they would be the ones to know what is best.

The analogy I'd have to say is it's similar to America under British rule. The leaders never stepped foot here, so how the hell do they know what's going on? It's one thing when the admins just ignore in game and work out of game on things. It's another when some players who've been here for 3 months or longer have never seen some sadmins on game. Are you saying this whole concept of "well I'm an admin so I don't need to PLAY minecraft anymore, just brainstorm" is okay?

I never said I approved of the new Sadmin choice, or the fact that they hardly play on the server to begin with. I really admire the Sadmins, but I agree they need more of a presence on their home server.

The thing is, playtime doesn't automatically make someone a quality mod or admin candidate, there are a lot of factors to take into account, which is something I simply cannot see the community being capable of.

CROCKODUCK · December 21, 2014

I never said I approved of the new Sadmin choice, or the fact that they hardly play on the server to begin with. I really admire the Sadmins, but I agree they need more of a presence on their home server.

The thing is, playtime doesn't automatically make someone a quality mod or admin candidate, there are a lot of factors to take into account, which is something I simply cannot see the community being capable of.

I understand the concerns. Perhaps more of a community suggestion system? Community input can be very valuable if you channel it correctly. The actual voting could come from specific knowledge staff too? Like mods who know S well or have vast knowledge of the players.

Trooprm32 · December 21, 2014

I understand the concerns. Perhaps more of a community suggestion system? Community input can be very valuable if you channel it correctly. The actual voting could come from specific knowledge staff too? Like mods who know S well or have vast knowledge of the players.

This is better. I have no problem with community suggestions and input, but enabling them to dictate admins is not the route to go.

tobylane · December 21, 2014

How about an overhaul of the admin system. We've had the same system in place since 2011 and it's clearly no longer effective. Admins used to chose players who they knew well but knew were very active in what they do.

Let's talk in general admin nominating. The system should be from an outside party? The community perhaps! You run the risk of more popularity contests but it's a very good start for finding the best candidate. How about the head admins? They don't step foot in game enough sometimes but it could be possible. Perhaps the mods? I personally wouldn't feel comfortable voting in the new sadmin because I'll admit I don't know everyone who's most active and helpful on survival. So now we go back to the community.

Tornadohorse and Avada and many other S dedicated players have spent more time on there than any admins. So despite it being a different ballgame they would be the ones to know what is best.

Can you explain in more detail how players would find people suitable for admin positions, suitable to co-lead Nerd, the necessity to carefully pick their actions and have access to all that is necessary for their job? Why is it worth the risk, if others not on your side, say me, think it'll be a popularity contest from the start. What if P players colluded? A large active city, say Rose, might outnumber you.

roastnewt · December 21, 2014

I never said I approved of the new Sadmin choice, or the fact that they hardly play on the server to begin with. I really admire the Sadmins, but I agree they need more of a presence on their home server.

The thing is, playtime doesn't automatically make someone a quality mod or admin candidate, there are a lot of factors to take into account, which is something I simply cannot see the community being capable of.

Why do you think the community would be unable to take factors other than playtime into account?

Nerd.nu is actually a very mature community (in certain aspects). Most of our players will be able to vote in their next (irl) election. Is choosing the leadership of a minecraft server so much more serious and complex than choosing a representative in government, that they can be trusted to do one but not the other?

Voting would have some problems (You'd have to establish "citizenship" maybe by forum account age? So there's no ballot stuffing, and a ton of other problems...) But I find it odd that you'd dismissing the democracy argument as "obviously" untenable.

Trooprm32 · December 21, 2014

Why do you think the community would be unable to take factors other than playtime into account?

Nerd.nu is actually a very mature community (in certain aspects). Most of our players will be able to vote in their next (irl) election. Is choosing the leadership of a minecraft server so much more serious and complex than choosing a representative in government, that they can be trusted to do one but not the other?

Voting would have some problems (You'd have to establish "citizenship" maybe by forum account age? So there's no ballot stuffing, and a ton of other problems...) But I find it odd that you'd dismissing the democracy argument as "obviously" untenable.

If we're talking in analogies, elections and representative leaders have a overall minor affect on peoples everyday lives; I wouldn't trust most people to vote IRL either. Server admins have a clearer presence than the president in what we do in game or in real life respectively.

It's because Admins have a bigger impact on our gameplay that I couldn't see a typical democracy system working properly.

roastnewt · December 21, 2014

If we're talking in analogies, elections and representative leaders have a overall minor affect on peoples everyday lives; I wouldn't trust most people to vote IRL either. Server admins have a clearer presence than the president in what we do in game or in real life respectively.

It's because Admins have a bigger impact on our gameplay that I couldn't see a typical democracy system working properly.

Democracy only works because officials have very little power? Aside from not being true (the local city council has a HUGE impact on my life), that might be the most unamerican/uncanadian thing I've read this year.

CROCKODUCK · December 21, 2014

Can you explain in more detail how players would find people suitable for admin positions, suitable to co-lead Nerd, the necessity to carefully pick their actions and have access to all that is necessary for their job? Why is it worth the risk, if others not on your side, say me, think it'll be a popularity contest from the start. What if P players colluded? A large active city, say Rose, might outnumber you.

I read this 5 times and I still can't comprehend a single point you tried to make.

1) what does rose have to do with any of this

2) we are a community server you know? Do you prefer being out of the loop?

Cyotie911 · December 22, 2014

This thread has gone on quite long enough. The reasoning behind the Sadmin selection has already been addressed here: https://nerd.nu/forums/topic/2871-please-welcome-our-newest-survival-admin/#entry22175

If anyone needs further clarificartion, feel free to contact a Survival admin to discuss it with them.

This is a huge issue that needs to be fixed

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